My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news
01-16-13, 04:52 PM
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Once upon a time I drank the lemond/Hinault coolaid.
But on a local club ride I talked with a rider who had once raced and was rather astute. He pointed out that Lemond was an idiot if he thought Hinault would not be tempted to try for a 6th TDF win and that Hinault then took a path that would allow him the chance while more or less keeping his word.
After that I dug a bit and read an interview with Andy Hampstein that demolished the popular American version of things while still showing the split in the La Vie Claire team.
Per Hampstein Hinault had one rider working for him, Lemond had 2 Hampstien and Bauer. Hampstein at first thought all the rest were working only for Hinault but learned differently when he was dropped off the back after giving his all to help Lemond and thought his top 10 position was gone, only to see 2 FRENCH riders from La Vie Claire drop back to help pull him back. When thanked them later and mentioned he hoped they would not have problems because of it one of them responded with somethgin like 'Are you crazy? Your are in 4th palce that is 75,000 francs!'.
Hinault took the path where he could claim to be helping Lemond yet have his chance. He attacked and broke legs left and right. In doing that he destroyed the field. And before it was over he had his chance to win. At one point he had a big enough lead he could easily have defended it. Instead he continued to attack and Lemond countered and took back the time he needed.
I think in the end Hinault decided at the least he was not going to win like Anquetil. If he won number 6 it would be like Merckx or not at all. If he was going to in hte end break his word it would be with decent deniability and with major flash.
EDIT:
One would also do well to look at where Americans got their chance ot Ride in the TDF. IThe chance came riding for La Vie Claire. It came through Hinault. Now I think Hinault's motivation was selfish and smart. He found a source of major talent that was helpful to him. But he, or at least his team, is the one who found it and opened the door. I'm inclined to think Hinault had a significant part in some of the changes that came after that, where Americans, Austrailians and others became part of the Tour and the Tour changes from the top Grand Tour, but still not that different from the Giro, to THE Tour, the one race people in non-cycling countries know about even if they know of no other race.
But on a local club ride I talked with a rider who had once raced and was rather astute. He pointed out that Lemond was an idiot if he thought Hinault would not be tempted to try for a 6th TDF win and that Hinault then took a path that would allow him the chance while more or less keeping his word.
After that I dug a bit and read an interview with Andy Hampstein that demolished the popular American version of things while still showing the split in the La Vie Claire team.
Per Hampstein Hinault had one rider working for him, Lemond had 2 Hampstien and Bauer. Hampstein at first thought all the rest were working only for Hinault but learned differently when he was dropped off the back after giving his all to help Lemond and thought his top 10 position was gone, only to see 2 FRENCH riders from La Vie Claire drop back to help pull him back. When thanked them later and mentioned he hoped they would not have problems because of it one of them responded with somethgin like 'Are you crazy? Your are in 4th palce that is 75,000 francs!'.
Hinault took the path where he could claim to be helping Lemond yet have his chance. He attacked and broke legs left and right. In doing that he destroyed the field. And before it was over he had his chance to win. At one point he had a big enough lead he could easily have defended it. Instead he continued to attack and Lemond countered and took back the time he needed.
I think in the end Hinault decided at the least he was not going to win like Anquetil. If he won number 6 it would be like Merckx or not at all. If he was going to in hte end break his word it would be with decent deniability and with major flash.
EDIT:
One would also do well to look at where Americans got their chance ot Ride in the TDF. IThe chance came riding for La Vie Claire. It came through Hinault. Now I think Hinault's motivation was selfish and smart. He found a source of major talent that was helpful to him. But he, or at least his team, is the one who found it and opened the door. I'm inclined to think Hinault had a significant part in some of the changes that came after that, where Americans, Austrailians and others became part of the Tour and the Tour changes from the top Grand Tour, but still not that different from the Giro, to THE Tour, the one race people in non-cycling countries know about even if they know of no other race.
Haha, j/k. Very insightful, thank you. Guess I'll give the Moore book another crack.
01-16-13, 04:53 PM
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Years ago I got sick of Armstrong fanbois saying today you can't do what Merckx did in his day. In some respects they are right.
BUT it also seems you could not do it any time before or after unless you were Merckx.
I decided to see how riders did in some list of top races that had existed over time. I came up with the 'Big 9'. The 3 Major Tours, the 5 Monuments and the Worlds Championship.
It was interesting. Over half the time someone won 2 of them, in fact one year 3 riders each won 2 of them. But 3 was fairly rare. That has only been done about 15 times. And before Merckx only one rider had ever won 4 of them. Fausto Coppi. Before Merckx and to this day except for Merckx no rider has won 3 or more of these races more than once. No one, Not Coppi, Binda, Hinault or Roche. Armstrong only has 2 in his career.
Merckx won 3 or more of these 7 years in a row, winning 4 twice and 5 twice. Oh and the year before that streak started he won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro. No one has matched that, in fact no one besides Mercks has won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro in a career.
BUT it also seems you could not do it any time before or after unless you were Merckx.
I decided to see how riders did in some list of top races that had existed over time. I came up with the 'Big 9'. The 3 Major Tours, the 5 Monuments and the Worlds Championship.
It was interesting. Over half the time someone won 2 of them, in fact one year 3 riders each won 2 of them. But 3 was fairly rare. That has only been done about 15 times. And before Merckx only one rider had ever won 4 of them. Fausto Coppi. Before Merckx and to this day except for Merckx no rider has won 3 or more of these races more than once. No one, Not Coppi, Binda, Hinault or Roche. Armstrong only has 2 in his career.
Merckx won 3 or more of these 7 years in a row, winning 4 twice and 5 twice. Oh and the year before that streak started he won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro. No one has matched that, in fact no one besides Mercks has won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro in a career.
01-16-13, 05:01 PM
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I disagree with the part about Lemond being unhinged; the only sane man in an insane world full of partisans chanting how clean Armstrong was.
Also disagree with the Badger stabbing anyone in the back. The commentary certainly called Hinault's motives into question, but I've watched the DVD dozens of times, and I'm convinced the Badger was going out with panache. Until the '89 Tour, everyone said that was the most dramatic Tour in memory, (thanks mostly to Hinault IMO.)
Also disagree with the Badger stabbing anyone in the back. The commentary certainly called Hinault's motives into question, but I've watched the DVD dozens of times, and I'm convinced the Badger was going out with panache. Until the '89 Tour, everyone said that was the most dramatic Tour in memory, (thanks mostly to Hinault IMO.)
Somehow few know of this. I'll admit I stumbled onto it researching just how Merckx's winning margin in 1969 compared to those of previous years. For the record his winning margin exceded the previous 7 years combined and is more than any year since.
01-16-13, 05:24 PM
#1179
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It's interesting, and sort of tragic, the evolution of the die hard Lance fans. Where once the people telling the truth could be dismissed and insulted, now they must rely on vague, serpentine arguments regarding the nature of man or long-winded philosophical debates regarding the 'good of cycling'.
I am first and foremost a cyclist. And, only a fan in passing of professional racing. I follow the season, on a 'as time allows' basis. I'll look for time to watch a couple of the spring classics and the TDF. Giro and Vuelta, maybe.
While I admire what LA accomplished, I'm no great fan of his. He did however, change the way the game was played. And I'm not talking about PED's. Those pre-date Lance by decades. He was the first to approach the season with his eyes set firmly on one GT and an entire team built around that goal. And, he in combination with Johan demonstrated a degree of dominance with regard to how they applied that season strategy.
What about my post is 'vague' to you? I'll happily clarify.
Serpentine? "Regarding the nature of man"? How, in that I accuse Landis and Hamilton of continuing to use after disassociation from Lance and only "coming clean" once they were busted. There's nothing serpentive there. It's mearly a statement of fact with regard to the fact that the peleton has a certain population of unprofessional whinging cry babies who wouldn't be unlikely to say, "But, but, he's doing it too."
I've been cognicant to the fact that Lance was using PED's for many years. For the first several years I listened carefully and noticed that he cotinually replied, "I have never tested positive." "How can all these tests be wrong?" etc. Without ever saying "I've never used....". I always thought to myself that those were carefully worded responses that did not betray the truth. Then, one day, I remember him saying, "I've never used...." and I was shocked. I wondered to myself if he had heard himself say the aforementioned so many times that he actually started to believe it.
But, I've not accused any of characters of not telling the truth. I have accused them of behaving in a less than professional manner. There is no end to the list of careers they would never work in again, if after getting busted for something they did, they then went on to volunteer all those they had previously worked for or knew to have done the same. That is not a defense. That is not 'whistle blowing' from an otherwise innocent to correct wrong doing.
But, my post wasn't about liking or hating Lance. It was about his confession and what ramifications it might have on cycling.
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01-16-13, 05:43 PM
#1180
Professional Fuss-Budget
Originally Posted by Keith99
He pointed out that Lemond was an idiot if he thought Hinault would not be tempted to try for a 6th TDF win...
If I ever need a defense attorney, please remind me not to hire you.
Originally Posted by Keith99
I think in the end Hinault decided at the least he was not going to win like Anquetil. If he won number 6 it would be like Merckx or not at all. If he was going to in hte end break his word it would be with decent deniability and with major flash.
He was an aggressive rider, and he wanted to win, no matter what. He didn't give a crap about "decent deniability," because at the end of the day, Hinault knew the French wouldn't care.
Originally Posted by Keith99
One would also do well to look at where Americans got their chance ot Ride in the TDF.
If Lemond and Hampstein hadn't been on La Vie Claire, they would have been on another team. American involvement in Le Tour was going to happen with or without Hinault.
01-16-13, 05:45 PM
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01-16-13, 09:43 PM
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Wanna bet? Just because none will admit to it now, doesn't mean there aren't thousands (perhaps tens of thousands) of US Postal-replica and Livestrong-Replica bikes out hidden away in garages all across America. I would say that I've seen a Livestrong, Radio Shack, US Postal, Discovery, and Astana jersey in at least 2/3 to 3/4 of every one of my rides in the last 5 years. As PT Barnum once said, "You'll never go broke catering to the lowest common denominator in America." And there is decidedly a downside to importing vast swathes of the LCD into my sport.
Your sport? That's a bit rich isn't it? Again, I don't see what the downside is in having more people cycling. If you don't want to ride with newbies, don't ride with them, but as someone who's a bit tired of paying higher premiums for rapidly escalating obesity rates, I don't see any downside to someone doing something that will lead to a healthy lifestyle.
You're right about the bikes, but that's less because people wanted them than the fact that they were pumped out en masse. Lots of people bought them without knowing specifically that he went with a particular team who was being marketed at the time. I just don't see what the big deal is when it comes to how people got into cycling. I don't think they're nearly as bad as these people who swallowed everything Lance said for years.
01-16-13, 10:46 PM
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My disgust is not with the new riders (or even with Lance), it's with the Lance fans. Many of them with thankfully go away, because they don't love cycling, they love icons. To many of them Lance = cycling. It took me months to get my neighbors to stop calling me "Lance".
And as soon as the Lance fans find out you are not one of them, they act as if you're an atheist standing in their church.
Lemond mentions that Dr. Ferrari is a known "program" doctor, and the Yellow Bracelet brigade attack Lemond; then they go after Andreiu and his wife, then Hamilton, Emma, then Landis, then the UCI, then the USADA, after the entire pro peloton because of course they ALL doped, and now that their high priest has been defrocked, hopefully they'll all jump on to the next big thing.
Cyclists get charged up on (natural) hormones, and we are capable of doing and saying dumb things. But the current culture of nastiness, intimidation, divisiveness, selfishness... Lance made this the norm for them.
I still feel an immediate kinship with anyone who rides, but as soon as they start chanting the Armstrong legal-team's gospel against that crybaby Lemond or that doper Landis... ugh.
Hopefully The Next Big Thing comes along soon and takes them with it.
And as soon as the Lance fans find out you are not one of them, they act as if you're an atheist standing in their church.
Lemond mentions that Dr. Ferrari is a known "program" doctor, and the Yellow Bracelet brigade attack Lemond; then they go after Andreiu and his wife, then Hamilton, Emma, then Landis, then the UCI, then the USADA, after the entire pro peloton because of course they ALL doped, and now that their high priest has been defrocked, hopefully they'll all jump on to the next big thing.
Cyclists get charged up on (natural) hormones, and we are capable of doing and saying dumb things. But the current culture of nastiness, intimidation, divisiveness, selfishness... Lance made this the norm for them.
I still feel an immediate kinship with anyone who rides, but as soon as they start chanting the Armstrong legal-team's gospel against that crybaby Lemond or that doper Landis... ugh.
Hopefully The Next Big Thing comes along soon and takes them with it.
01-16-13, 11:18 PM
#1186
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Years ago I got sick of Armstrong fanbois saying today you can't do what Merckx did in his day. In some respects they are right.
BUT it also seems you could not do it any time before or after unless you were Merckx.
I decided to see how riders did in some list of top races that had existed over time. I came up with the 'Big 9'. The 3 Major Tours, the 5 Monuments and the Worlds Championship.
It was interesting. Over half the time someone won 2 of them, in fact one year 3 riders each won 2 of them. But 3 was fairly rare. That has only been done about 15 times. And before Merckx only one rider had ever won 4 of them. Fausto Coppi. Before Merckx and to this day except for Merckx no rider has won 3 or more of these races more than once. No one, Not Coppi, Binda, Hinault or Roche. Armstrong only has 2 in his career.
Merckx won 3 or more of these 7 years in a row, winning 4 twice and 5 twice. Oh and the year before that streak started he won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro. No one has matched that, in fact no one besides Mercks has won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro in a career.
BUT it also seems you could not do it any time before or after unless you were Merckx.
I decided to see how riders did in some list of top races that had existed over time. I came up with the 'Big 9'. The 3 Major Tours, the 5 Monuments and the Worlds Championship.
It was interesting. Over half the time someone won 2 of them, in fact one year 3 riders each won 2 of them. But 3 was fairly rare. That has only been done about 15 times. And before Merckx only one rider had ever won 4 of them. Fausto Coppi. Before Merckx and to this day except for Merckx no rider has won 3 or more of these races more than once. No one, Not Coppi, Binda, Hinault or Roche. Armstrong only has 2 in his career.
Merckx won 3 or more of these 7 years in a row, winning 4 twice and 5 twice. Oh and the year before that streak started he won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro. No one has matched that, in fact no one besides Mercks has won all 3 major jerseys in the Giro in a career.
And he was doped to the gills like everyone else in his day.
After Simpson died the use of drugs diminished and testing became more advanced and this was the era in which Merckx came to prominence... he was also someone that did not just win but totally dominated with a win record that is unmatched.
After putting in a full and very successful season and topping that by winning the TdF he went out and set the hour record which stood until the age of... wait for it... modern doping strategies.
Armstrong is not even in the same league and am sure Merckx is very disappointed as he was a strong supporter of Armstrong and anti doping measures, this may have been because in many cases he could ride clean and had no need of performance enhancing drugs but his competitors were doing everything possible (without being caught) to beat the Cannibal.
Like Coppi, teams of riders could not reel him in when he took off and he would ride them into the dust, was a master strategist and his record helped him psychologically destroy many riders who simply lost faith that they could catch him or stay ahead of them... and he would always be right there waiting to eat you and spit you out.
And unlike Lance... he seems like a really nice human being.
01-16-13, 11:52 PM
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And I think that's what bothers most people...since they're not likening any of the
other doping posties to Lance it must be because they weren't as big an ass as he.
But, many (not all) of the people he "bullied" made money and rode the Armstrong wave
and then decided to be "honest." So I get why he'd look at them as rats and treat them
accordingly. But the most offensive thing I read from Hamilton about Lance was that Lance
ratted Hamilton to the UCI 2004. If true, Lance is an even bigger dick than I had imagined.
And if he turns on Johan, then he's one big *****.
other doping posties to Lance it must be because they weren't as big an ass as he.
But, many (not all) of the people he "bullied" made money and rode the Armstrong wave
and then decided to be "honest." So I get why he'd look at them as rats and treat them
accordingly. But the most offensive thing I read from Hamilton about Lance was that Lance
ratted Hamilton to the UCI 2004. If true, Lance is an even bigger dick than I had imagined.
And if he turns on Johan, then he's one big *****.
Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 01-16-13 at 11:57 PM.
01-17-13, 09:01 AM
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https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0Ua...pli=1&sle=true
This is a link to the 'whistleblower' case that is likely the ultimate cause of everything we've seen lately. The US government is expected to join shortly, but have not yet done so.
This is a link to the 'whistleblower' case that is likely the ultimate cause of everything we've seen lately. The US government is expected to join shortly, but have not yet done so.
01-17-13, 09:03 AM
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https://professional.wsj.com/article/...?mg=reno64-wsj
This is an important one to read, and could become more interesting in the coming weeks, as Armstrong 'clarifies his relationship' with the UCI leadership.
This is an important one to read, and could become more interesting in the coming weeks, as Armstrong 'clarifies his relationship' with the UCI leadership.
01-17-13, 09:58 AM
#1190
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Thanks Commodus,
Unless swept under the carpet, this coul get interesting. What a tangled web.
Unless swept under the carpet, this coul get interesting. What a tangled web.
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01-17-13, 09:59 AM
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Did the P.E. drugs make a 7 minute difference for Lance?
I see that 5 out of the seven tours were won by approx. 7 minutes. One was by almost 5 and one was only by 1 minute. So , do the drugs that Lance took make that big of a difference? Wouldn't he have won easily anyway? 7 minutes is huge in a race.
But, Hamilton said he was nowhere to be found before that in an interview. He won a few stages and that's about it (I said this last sentence). He was starting to develop cancer and had to drop out of the tour in 95 i believe though. Thanks
But, Hamilton said he was nowhere to be found before that in an interview. He won a few stages and that's about it (I said this last sentence). He was starting to develop cancer and had to drop out of the tour in 95 i believe though. Thanks
01-17-13, 10:04 AM
#1192
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While I admire what LA accomplished, I'm no great fan of his. He did however, change the way the game was played. And I'm not talking about PED's. Those pre-date Lance by decades. He was the first to approach the season with his eyes set firmly on one GT and an entire team built around that goal. And, he in combination with Johan demonstrated a degree of dominance with regard to how they applied that season strategy.
Focusing on one target event, doing fewer races, and spending lots of time training at remote locations became a way to beat doping controls. It wasn't because doing recon of the high mountains gave Armstrong some great competitive advantage.
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01-17-13, 10:08 AM
#1193
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https://professional.wsj.com/article/...?mg=reno64-wsj
This is an important one to read, and could become more interesting in the coming weeks, as Armstrong 'clarifies his relationship' with the UCI leadership.
This is an important one to read, and could become more interesting in the coming weeks, as Armstrong 'clarifies his relationship' with the UCI leadership.
If the financial ties to Weisel are true, it paints a really ugly picture, and makes some of the other allegations start to seem a bit more plausible.
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You could hit a tree and die.
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01-17-13, 10:18 AM
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If you are implying that I am some sort of "die hard Lance fan" you are mistaken.
I am first and foremost a cyclist. And, only a fan in passing of professional racing. I follow the season, on a 'as time allows' basis. I'll look for time to watch a couple of the spring classics and the TDF. Giro and Vuelta, maybe.
While I admire what LA accomplished, I'm no great fan of his. He did however, change the way the game was played. And I'm not talking about PED's. Those pre-date Lance by decades. He was the first to approach the season with his eyes set firmly on one GT and an entire team built around that goal. And, he in combination with Johan demonstrated a degree of dominance with regard to how they applied that season strategy.
What about my post is 'vague' to you? I'll happily clarify.
Serpentine? "Regarding the nature of man"? How, in that I accuse Landis and Hamilton of continuing to use after disassociation from Lance and only "coming clean" once they were busted. There's nothing serpentive there. It's mearly a statement of fact with regard to the fact that the peleton has a certain population of unprofessional whinging cry babies who wouldn't be unlikely to say, "But, but, he's doing it too."
I've been cognicant to the fact that Lance was using PED's for many years. For the first several years I listened carefully and noticed that he cotinually replied, "I have never tested positive." "How can all these tests be wrong?" etc. Without ever saying "I've never used....". I always thought to myself that those were carefully worded responses that did not betray the truth. Then, one day, I remember him saying, "I've never used...." and I was shocked. I wondered to myself if he had heard himself say the aforementioned so many times that he actually started to believe it.
But, I've not accused any of characters of not telling the truth. I have accused them of behaving in a less than professional manner. There is no end to the list of careers they would never work in again, if after getting busted for something they did, they then went on to volunteer all those they had previously worked for or knew to have done the same. That is not a defense. That is not 'whistle blowing' from an otherwise innocent to correct wrong doing.
But, my post wasn't about liking or hating Lance. It was about his confession and what ramifications it might have on cycling.
I am first and foremost a cyclist. And, only a fan in passing of professional racing. I follow the season, on a 'as time allows' basis. I'll look for time to watch a couple of the spring classics and the TDF. Giro and Vuelta, maybe.
While I admire what LA accomplished, I'm no great fan of his. He did however, change the way the game was played. And I'm not talking about PED's. Those pre-date Lance by decades. He was the first to approach the season with his eyes set firmly on one GT and an entire team built around that goal. And, he in combination with Johan demonstrated a degree of dominance with regard to how they applied that season strategy.
What about my post is 'vague' to you? I'll happily clarify.
Serpentine? "Regarding the nature of man"? How, in that I accuse Landis and Hamilton of continuing to use after disassociation from Lance and only "coming clean" once they were busted. There's nothing serpentive there. It's mearly a statement of fact with regard to the fact that the peleton has a certain population of unprofessional whinging cry babies who wouldn't be unlikely to say, "But, but, he's doing it too."
I've been cognicant to the fact that Lance was using PED's for many years. For the first several years I listened carefully and noticed that he cotinually replied, "I have never tested positive." "How can all these tests be wrong?" etc. Without ever saying "I've never used....". I always thought to myself that those were carefully worded responses that did not betray the truth. Then, one day, I remember him saying, "I've never used...." and I was shocked. I wondered to myself if he had heard himself say the aforementioned so many times that he actually started to believe it.
But, I've not accused any of characters of not telling the truth. I have accused them of behaving in a less than professional manner. There is no end to the list of careers they would never work in again, if after getting busted for something they did, they then went on to volunteer all those they had previously worked for or knew to have done the same. That is not a defense. That is not 'whistle blowing' from an otherwise innocent to correct wrong doing.
But, my post wasn't about liking or hating Lance. It was about his confession and what ramifications it might have on cycling.
mea culpa
01-17-13, 10:25 AM
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LA didn't drop out in 1995. He finished 36th in Paris having won one stage.
You're thinking of 1996 when he quit on stage 6 of the TdF.
You're thinking of 1996 when he quit on stage 6 of the TdF.
01-17-13, 11:00 AM
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Ofcourse it made a difference, that's why he/they did it.
How much of a difference? Who knows?
The question is irrelevant as he never won a TdF or an Olympic medal.
https://www.olympic.org/news/ioc-stat...mstrong/188433
Get over it.
How much of a difference? Who knows?
The question is irrelevant as he never won a TdF or an Olympic medal.
https://www.olympic.org/news/ioc-stat...mstrong/188433
Get over it.
01-17-13, 11:13 AM
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"It was eleven more than necessary."
Jacques Anquetil
After winning a race by twelve seconds.
Jacques Anquetil
After winning a race by twelve seconds.
01-17-13, 11:52 AM
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I see that 5 out of the seven tours were won by approx. 7 minutes. One was by almost 5 and one was only by 1 minute. So , do the drugs that Lance took make that big of a difference? Wouldn't he have won easily anyway? 7 minutes is huge in a race.
But, Hamilton said he was nowhere to be found before that in an interview. He won a few stages and that's about it (I said this last sentence). He was starting to develop cancer and had to drop out of the tour in 95 i believe though. Thanks
But, Hamilton said he was nowhere to be found before that in an interview. He won a few stages and that's about it (I said this last sentence). He was starting to develop cancer and had to drop out of the tour in 95 i believe though. Thanks
dropped out of all but one of those). He was doping '99 thorough '05 and won. Seems to
me the change in his performance was not primarily due to his continued doping.