redfooj

how do you teach your kids morals and honesty when you lied and defrauded millions of people , in public , ad nauseum

RedHerring

You're taking LA's quote out of context. He was stating that durring his time (in the golden age of doping) it couldn't be done without PED's. He wasn't saying, ever, or in the future.

RedHerring

He became a business liability to Trek. If you're run a business and one guy is making you a ton of cash and your other guy gets into a fight with your cash cow which one are you going to cut lose?

markus_mudd

Along with questions like the title of this thread we should also wonder just how bad Hincapie (perpetual Mr. Almost) would have been without artificially enhanced performance and whether Contador (suspended for doping) would have ever won a grand tour.

My thought is that work ethic/focus put Lance over the top and made him able to win bunches of yellow jerseys. He's not going to be able to slack off and win against that sort of competition unless he dopes to the moon and drops dead on the Champs Elysees. It just seems that everyone is willing to do whatever it takes to win so I tend to think the winners aren't determined by high octane drugs and shenanigans but by preparation and that intangible natural gift that some possess.

I'd find another job if I had to cheat to be competitive in cycling but that's just me. I obviously don't understand what makes those guys tick.

bigfred 

Ans: You don't. You teach them to be winners.

ChezJfrey

I agree with you on all points.

Those Oprah interviews demonstrate just a slight twist on Lance's previous tactics; he's still lying, still manipulating, though this time the claim is, 'for the children,' rather than the, 'I am pure as snow and fighting cancer,' spiel.

He's still lying about offering money to USADA...some might consider that a bribe: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2512892.html

He won't admit to the hospital conversation RE doping...presumably to protect a certain doctor since it seems very convenient that Lance donated $1.5 million to his research in 2005, conveniently coinciding right around the time of the 2005 depositions...some might consider that a bribe: https://iuhealth.org/physicians/about...nce-armstrong/ Then, made him the first LAF Professor of Oncology in 2006.

And after more than a decade of lying, we're now supposed to believe him that he would never betray an alleged 2009 promise to ex-wife, Kristin, and thus did not dope in his comeback years, contrary to his usual modus operandi that was so successful for him and when an older body would certainly need some boost; a promise to a woman he ditched in 2003 so he could move on to date rock stars, fashion magnates and young actresses? Laughable.

Lance is not contrite, has paid no money back to people for lives he deliberately damaged under false pretense, and is fairly blatant about wanting to somehow wriggle back into some form of competition.

If he gives treble damages for the USPS qui tam of $90 million, pays roughly $20 million to Lemond for the lost Trek deal, reimburses $12 million to SCA, $1 million to the London Times for their legal fees, a few hundred thousand to people like O'Reilly, Betsy Andreu, Mike Anderson for their damaged reputations, and pays back all the other legal fees he's forced people to endure with fraudulent lawsuits, then serve one year in jail for every one of his 'wins' in the TdF, for a total of 7 years prison time, that might be sufficient penance.

I'm not holding my breath for that.

Homebrew01

I think it's good to hear Betsy. It puts a face on the people who have been betrayed and screwed over by Lance.
Keep playing the fanboi if you want. "Blame the victim" doesn't work for me.

mystang52

+ 1 I don't care what Lance says.

Homebrew01

Plenty of guys got 2 years for doing a lot less than he did.
I started laughing during the interview when he suggested he should only get 6 months.

mindundi

I'm told he's gonna ask for the win at the 2009 Tour, because he was clean, hundred percent clean, and he reckons, although maybe he's not the most believable guy in these moments, that all the else racers are doped.
I forgot to say that UCI is seriously considering the thing.

Cat4Lifer

You tell them the tale of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, or that "America" never started a war, or that Santa Clause watches to see of they're good, or that God watches to see if they're good or that he'll will forgive they're misdeeds if they just repent.

Cat4Lifer

A victim?
She and her hubby lived well off the TDF prize money and salary.
She and her quieter hubby knew of Lance's doping in the mid 1990s and yet they
stayed a part of the team until 2001 -- they still cashed the checks. They lived fairly well
off of the money gained by cheating.
Fact: they were a part of the doping.
Fact: they were a part of the lies to cover up doping.
Fact: they haven't offered to return the money gained by their cheating.

You can pucker up and stick your face in their collective ass all you want, but terming them victims doesn't work for me.

wphamilton

Exactly. I had to wonder was it worth it to win all those titles when it meant, ultimately, that you were betraying your own son? And all those years knowing that your every public proclamation of principle and integrity was a lie, that it was betraying even yourself for those victories. What kind of person could live with that?

I don't care about Armstrong, never did. But reading the interview, trying to imagine myself in his shoes, this is just unfathomable.

Cat4Lifer

I do remember that some organization put out a hierarchal list of the riders' who might be doping during 2010 and lance was not in the highest category; he was somewhere in the middle, I think. So, I'd be very interested to read an outsiders expert analysis of his blood during his comeback.

Cat4Lifer

Lance should have done what so many of the other riders who were accused and later found out to have doped--just STFU! But I think his ego was too big to go the way of people like George and Levi.

ultraman6970

Markus, when a person cross the line and there is a lot at stake the guy just will go with it.

Many of the racers here are in a clean environment and probably they havent even been asked or offered to get them some juice, somehow IMO if the guys around you sucks then you will get stained and tempted. In my particular case my dad and the dads of the other guys in my team plus the doctors and other team members had their ethics well straight and strong to kind'a block all that crap from the riders.

IMO if the guys in question (levi and the others) had been in a good environment maybe they wouldnt have doped ever, the same maybe with LA, people say he was doping since very young and if thats true is maybe because he went to work with the wrong people, with the time becomes an habit... is always a personaly choice anyways.

Bacciagalupe

FYI, Frankie wrote about his thoughts on the confession. https://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cy...frankie-speaks


You, uh, do know how little those guys get paid, right? It's not like a few years as a domestique meant he was set for life.

Not to mention his family almost certainly sunk a big chunk of change into legal fees and defending their reputation.


Does their lack of moral perfection means it was OK for Armstrong to rip them apart in public for a few years?

Did Betsy deserve to be called a liar over and over, and an "ugly, obese, jealous, obsessed, hateful, crazed *****" because Frankie was a cheater for a few years?


Hm. So on this basis, what should Armstrong repay? His winnings? His salary? The SCA bonus? How about his sponsorships from Trek, Nike and so forth? How about any subsequent earnings from all that capital?


It's unclear how much damage Armstrong has actually done to Frankie. Maybe Armstrong got FA fired from USPS or Versus, maybe not. Maybe crossing Armstrong in 2005/6 curtailed some opportunities, maybe not.

At a minimum, though, Armstrong did everything in his power to destroy their credibility and reputation. Some people -- presumably not directly connected to Armstrong, but who knows -- apparently threatened the Andreus and their kids with physical harm.

I agree that worse things have happened to people in this world. But yeah, "victim" seems to be an appropriate term, and "sympathy" is an appropriate reaction.

Angio Graham

like who ?

Cat4Lifer

She did and does seem to be obsessed and crazed.
So, sure she deserved it.



The same Frankie, George, Levi, Jonathon, Dave, and Tyler have returned.
Zero.

eja_ bottecchia

Many pixels have already been sacrificed in the great Lance Armstrong debate. I guess a few more won't matter.

For those who are interested in a clear-headed discussion of LA's Legend, I would suggest that you take a look at this article from the I LOVE CYCLING people.

For the rest of you who are more interested in spewing knee-jerk anti-Lance vitriol, making lame comparisons to Japanese soldiers in WW2 (I still don't get that one), or posting "cutesy" pictures (I really don't get that one either)...just move on, there is nothing here for you to read, process or understand.

From I Love Cycling

https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Love...g/283800981864

Here's our one and only post on Lance-gate. We get asked all the time what we think about the situation…what we think about Lance. The truth is, I don't like to think about it. Why? I don't feel "cheated"…don't feel betrayed or lied to. Nothing like that. Watching Lance's wins are some of my best memories. His domination of his opponents not only on the battlefield - but utterly crushing them mentally as well – it was a level that we have seen in very few individuals before. His intensity, focus, drive – not to mention his story that calls out to those completely unaffiliated with sport – has made him a Legend.

I cannot reconcile that more people benefited and prospered from Lance's wins than were hurt. The Tour de France was the most popular it ever has been, sponsors saw increased exposure and revenue…the charity wrist band phenomenon was created for christ sake. Teammates benefited monetarily, and went on to lead other teams. If/when they got caught for doping on their new team, then who's fault was that? Nobody but their own at that point. I have a real hard time with the "I was forced to against my will" argument. If it truly was not an accepted practice, then somebody would have been man enough to stand up. Nobody did. There was too much to lose, nothing to gain. Eddy Merckx said it best:

"I'm angry at the riders for speaking to investigators," Merckx said on Le Soir. "Damn it, that they speak up at the time, at least that would be useful. Afterwards is too late. If a rider is concerned about questionable practices, it's his duty to speak up for the good of others."

I have a hard time faulting Lance. I cannot say that I would not have done the same thing. If most of your competitors are engaged in a preparation that clearly benefits them - are you not going to do the same thing? Especially when it directly affects both your performance and monetary status? It's easy to say that you would take the moral high road, but it is much harder in practice. Frankly, 99% of the people condemning Lance in particular and cycling in general likely have moral indiscretions in their lives. This broad hypocritical condemnation makes the entire Lance dilemma almost impossible for me to discuss with people. Every situation has context, and ignoring that and making broad, holier than thou assertions renders it unreasonable to have a real dialogue about the Lance situation.

I don't feel any sort of betrayal or loss or anger at Lance. For the most part, I'm fine with the entire lot of it. All major parties ended up on the winning side. I think. In the past few years I have started working with a number of high level athletes, some of whom have competed directly against Lance. I'm as confident as I can be that they are "clean" athletes. One finished 2nd to Lance at a race. That cost him money and a bit of recognition. Frankly, it cost me money. How to reconcile that? Does that mean there were others that lost similar opportunities? I really don't think so - as the races that Lance historically raced in were BIG races…those that showed up had "prepared", if you will. But I can't be sure, obviously.

The professional athletes with whom I work with at that high level profess to be bothered by Lance-gate. I guess by proxy, it should bother me more than it does. Maybe these athletes simply haven't been exposed to the "dark" side of their sport, either by happenstance or by being at a moral high ground. Regardless, I can't be involved in the utter condemnation of Lance as an athlete. It’s too hypocritically pious, too much unequivocal placing of utter fault. Don't look for it here.
Would the results of Tour from `99-`05 have been different if PED's didn't exist? I doubt they would be vastly altered. Maybe a few placings here and there, but I am dubious we would have seen wholesale changes. In my mind, I am confident that the best athlete(s) won those races. Cycling changed and grew to whole new level because of Lance. Businesses grew because of Lance. The general populous (those NOT involved in cycling/sport) became inspired because of Lance. These things cannot and should not be forgotten. In this day and age of an outlandish level of public information awareness and accessibility, hiding ones flaws becomes near impossible. Because of this, making Legends, perfect individuals without character flaws, is damn near unfeasible. Lance the Legend has done good for his sports, his fans, the stricken people looking for hope…and has the potential to continue to have this impact in the future.

Right or wrong, I choose to think about "Lance the Legend".

LadyCRides

The sport is bigger than Lance Armstrong. The Tour de France has gone through many vicissitudes from 1903 to 2013. Vive le Tour! As for Armstrong, I think he is despicable. However, I don't think it is fair to punish an entire sport. The sport needs to be cleaned up to give a chance to riders who ride clean. No one should have to feel pressured to destroy their bod in pursuit of a cycling victory. When you read about the specifics of doping, you know that these guys are courting an early death. That's what makes it so horrible. Cycling should be about physical fitness, not about self-destruction.

mprelaw

Pretty sure they handed Contador 2 years.

Caretaker

Basso, Landis, Vinokourov, etc.

Cat4Lifer

In terms of sport, I never looked at Lance as a hero nor as a villain; I viewed him as a phenomenal cyclist.
In my mind he is the 7-time winner of the TDF; Floyd is the winner of the 2006 TDF; and Riss is the winner of the 1996 TDF.

Cat4Lifer

Plenty of guys got less than Armstrong for doing the same stuff he's accused of doing and did.