seypat

Very true.

seanthebear

With all due respect the USPS is a government agency operating within a virtual monopoly (for letter delivery, granted it competes with DLH and Fedex in courier services). Why does it need to promote itself through sponsorship on a scale with Nike? Nike is seeking brand recognition and positioning for its products. It's good that USDS offers some support to sport but 32m to a pro team is excessive.

Shimagnolo

I agree. I had a link saved to a Denver Post article that claimed a consultant retained by USPS determined that the sponsorship earned the USPS benefits about 4x the $32M. (The link is now broken.) I take that with a grain of salt, but I think it would be an interesting piece of evidence LA could have used in court to refute the governments claim that his doping harmed the sponsor.

Suppose he had not doped, and therefore not won. Then how much benefit would the USPS have gained from the $32M?

Old Town

In all seriousness and not to single out Lance Armstrong anymore, but I don't really think the US government cares at all about cycle racing. They give some surface attention to major sports like baseball and football but not really. Those members of Congress who get involved are only grandstanding. Pro sports is bread and circus for the masses. Compared to real issues facing the nation's leaders pro sports are nothing at all.

We like bikes and bike racing and that is why we read this stuff. Some of us understand it's not on the level. Some don't. You really shouldn't take any kind of sports entertainment seriously. It's not real and never has been in our lifetimes. Too much money on the line for men to act sporting. Maybe many years ago, but not now. Not hardly.

Just remember every single baseball player who went before Congress and swore to god he was clean ultimately was proven guilty or confessed. Roger Clemens is the only A-hole who still claims he's innocent. And if you have been following his trial you know his own wife has now confessed to taking HGH shots from Roger's trainer. It doesn't look good for the Rocket.

PEDs are the rule in sport today - not the exception. This is why I goof on pro riders and ball players today. This is why many guys goof on Lance and LeMond before him. We know the score.

Much of this understanding breaks down along age. I'm 55 and have lived some. Most supporters of Lance and company tend to be on the young side (under 30) and have not been around long enough to know the world is not a fair place. In time you young guys will come to understand how things really are. There is no Santa Claus and no true sports heroes either.

Sorry to pee on your pelaton.

ianstew

Alot of people aren't fans of LA because of cycling. They are fans because of his cancer survival story, his foundation, and his comeback after the cancer.

canam73

I would think Lance could use the fact that the USPS still exists as part of his defense. We don't really need mail anymore.

SwampDude

USPS is a quasi-government agency which operates independently, without direct taxpayer funding. It competes directly with FedEx and UPS. It's shortfall of revenues has produced huge operating losses, which recently prompted plans to reduce services by closing post offices and terminating employees; in this regard, it seems to operate a lot more like a business than a typical government agency.

Based on what I see on TV, USPS has a large advertising budget. It's ads for Priority Mail service are frequent, are aired in prime time, and are aimed at competitive positioning versus FedEx and UPS. In my opinion, sponsorship of the Armstrong teams was not a nationalistic gesture; it was to give high visibility to it's advertising message.

My reference to Nike/Tiger was only to give an example of a sports celebrity being employed by a business sponsor. I have no idea how the Nike marketing budget compares to USPS.

Old Town

This is amusing because I feel Lance brought on his own cancer through his over use of various steriods very early in his life. I'm also unimpressed with cancer survival stories. What other option does a cancer victim have? They can only take treatment and hope for the best. There is no "fighting".

I know this because I've survived cancer myself. There is nothing heroic about surviving any illness. It's not like you charged a machinegun nest in the South Pacific for the sake of your Marine buddies. No survivor of cancer is a hero of any kind. They are victims who happened to make it and nothing more.

bellweatherman

EPO is a natural hormone produced by the kidneys. The synthetic version, that is used in hospitals to treat anemia, wasn't even available in the 80s. Back then, it was amphetamines, steroids, and other stuff used. The medical program that riders on didn't have EPO replacing any of those drugs. It was incorporated with the medical programs those cyclists were on. In cycling, a handful of unethical doctors really pushed EPO's use in sports. Guys like Dr. Michele Ferrari should be put in jail and have his medical practice rights taken away.

US postal team had access to docs that provided EPO to select riders. And in addition, Armstrong also had paid for his own individual program from Dr. Ferrari. Armstrong and Ferrari went to great lengths to conceal their working relationship after if was ordered by the Italian courts that Dr. Ferrari stop working with any athlete and the supply of EPO. Armstrong even claimed to have stopped working with Ferrari in 2004, only to make up an excuse saying that they were friends and still meet to cover up any improprieties that he surely knew existed later on after 2004.

SwampDude

As a cancer survivor, you have an interesting point of view. As a cancer survivor, your are certainly entitled to your point of view.

I have been very close to cancer cases in my family and with friends where the desire to survive and the fight for survival were heroic, in my opinion. The treatments were horrific. The effects of the disease and the treatments took a tremendous toll. You might say these patients had no choice, but they did; they could have given up.

Facing each day with cancer while maintaining a positive attitude about getting better is as brave as charging a machine gun in combat. That's just my point of view, and I'm a survivor, too. I wear a LIVESTRONG bracelet every day as a reminder of my good fortune, not because I'm a Lance Armstrong fan. His survival experience, regardless of what caused his disease, is inspirational to patients around the world. Thats his real legacy.

bikepro

Absolutely correct. If we got these doctors off the street it would eliminate the sophisticated procedures used to defeat drug testing, that only a doctor could come up with.

daveF

But, EPO doesn't work well on everyone. Maybe some, maybe a lot. But, definitely not everyone. Long before EPO there were blood transfusions.

Old Town

Swampdude, the whole subject of cancer is a tricky one. I like to goof on these forums but honestly, the idea to me that surviving any disease is somehow heroic does not fit with my experience. You have a very strong instinct to live. Few people, especially young people, quit wanting to live when they get cancer or TB or any other disease. You simply do what the doctors tell you to do and usually suffer chemo or radiation or both and all that entails.

You do this because you have no real choice. I brought my own various skin cancers on myself for having shunned sun screens and hats, etc, and living in South Florida all my life. Much of the time spent on a boat. I'm as guilty as Lance and his drug use where causing my own problems is concerned.

My particular adventure with skin cancer was a close thing. It even spread to the bones in my left elbow. I had bone removed. Ten years later I'm doing OK so far. In no way am I any kind of hero. This whole idea that cancer victims are heroes echos back to the need for many persons to seek out heroes where they do not exist. Like in bike racing or baseball. There are no heroes in those activities.

Heroes are firemen, cops who aren't corrupt, soldiers involved in righteous wars, everyday people who sacrifice for their kids. Those are heroes. Not some poor shmuck who contracts cancer and can't see fit to kill himself when it really gets bad. Every instinct is keeping him alive. You don't need to be a hero for that. Nature's instincts take care of it. Ulitmately we all want to live.

ianstew

They are heroes to their family and friends. They are heroes to other people with cancer. The term hero is subjective, that's why everybody has different heroes. The little kids at St. Jude who fight to live, the doctors who work tirelessly to help them, the people who overcome a near death sentence that some cancers give......those people can be heroes too.

If a teenager with cancer holds Lance as a hero, then in fact, Lance is a hero to someone. Maybe not in your eyes, but it's not your eyes that matter to that person. That is why some people regard Lance as a hero, because whatever he may have done to gain that status was hero worthy to that person. Not you, them.

SwampDude

I understand what you're saying. Our difference of opinion may be more semantic than substantive. You've experienced the "big C" diagnosis, so you have special insight. My experience was with early stage kidney cancer; the tumor was removed in 2000 without loss of the kidney and without recurrence (fingers XXX).

I am acquainted with someone who is fighting for life against colon cancer which has spread to the lymph glands. This individual has been through multiple sets of chemotherapy and radiation. The battle has been going on for over a year. Whenever she has the strength to exercise, she does, faithfully. Diet, rest, positive mental attitude and prayer are part of each days attack in a stage 4 battle. In my mind, this brave soul is a warrior. She has noble qualities beyond description. She shows great courage and still expects to win. She is a hero to me, by her actions and by my definition.

I suspect we can easily agree to just walk away from this difference in opinion. We are among the fortunate ones who survived the disease to discuss it years after our diagnosis. Both of us are winners.

LemondFanForeve

Again, you havent answered my question as to how you know this? is this a factual/credbile thing, or is this just hearsay? I mean, Lance's way of taking heat off himself and get folks to stop focusing on him, was to try to come up with something so outlandish, that people who support him, would believe it. They have, and thats the sad part. I ask again, please explain, show your work, whatever, as to when and where Lemond doped, who said he did, and why hasn't it come out sooner? it's been over 21 years since he's won the TDF, and I'd think it wouldve certainly come out by now. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, I would honestly like to know why folks keep claiming Lemond dopedc, when there's never been 1 shred of evidence from anyone claiming he has. Its easy to just say " oh yeah, well so and so and so and so doped too, what do you think of that?" Can you please answer the question? thank you.

bellweatherman

And this is exactly why what he has done is so, so despicable. The cheating, the coverups, and the years of lying. Not just to the general public, but to all the little cancer kids out there that held out for true hope. He used those kids and in the process earned millions on millions, living a life of luxury, private jets, mansions in Italy, fancy cars, a pampered life. Armstrong is the worst of the worst. He is a villain, not a hero. He destroyed cycling, and he is the thief tht stole not only millions, but hope, real hope based on true integrity.

Fat Boy

incorrect. They're fans because he won. In other news, Clemens is acquitted.

Shimagnolo

Oh, spare us the BS.
So Lance was responsible for all of this, eh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ses_in_cycling

Street Pedaler

+1
Again, going after LA to "Clean up cycling" is like stopping a bloody nose to cure Leukemia. He's just a symptom of a much larger disease.

Old Town

I read this several times. I think perhaps you are correct. Your writing is very good. It influenced me and I'm a crusty old flogger. Good work.

Old Town

LeMond Fan, did you read the bit I wrote on Sebastian Coe (the miler) on one of the other Lance threads? The whole point of that was to show how much of an influence PED's can have on decent but lesser athletes when competing against a superior athlete. Nothing the superior runner or cyclist can do will allow for beating the cheater so good are the PED's. They do work great.

Most persons know (maybe not you) that drug use is the rule in cycling. I can't believe any adult would dispute this. Just like I would expect any adult to know Pro Wrestling is fixed. Now bear with me.

If you accept that drugs run rampant in cycling, then any rider who is able to dominate in that sport must be a drug user also. I actually think LeMond would have beat all those riders clean, IF all were also clean. But most accept the simple fact that PED's run 100% in pro cycling. If you don't dope, you will not even get into the running. You will be too slow and lack the required endurance.

This goes back to a point I made earlier: if you like Lance or Greg, you choose to say that they were only keeping pace with everyone else's drug use. If you don't like them, or if you are simply seeking the truth with no dog in the fight, you see those two men for what they are - cheating dogs.

All depends on your point of view. What doesn't change is the fact they all do drugs. They have to.

ianstew

I know several people who are fans of LA because his cancer survival and comeback to cycling (doped or not). Lance is quite an inspiration to some who have cancer, and who have beaten cancer. I personally know someone who feels that Lance's story gave them the strength to fight, to keep their head up and get better. I asked them if Lance used steroids( the easiest way to explain it) if that changed their minds. No, it didn't. Lance is a hero to him. Not because he won 7 TDF's, but because he beat cancer and got back on the bike.

SwampDude

Son of a gun, Old Town, I'm impressed. You came, you listened and your opinion was changed. That, sir, is how 'gentlemen' behave. Its called intellectual integrity. Bravo!

daveF

I think you are a bit naive if you think all pro cyclists use PED's. For one, they don't work the same on everyone. Just like various supplements.