loimpact

I would certainly say you shouldn't worry about it. Although I think the Felt Z5 is a fine bike, you can certainly pick the bike of your choice. Consider that I'd possibly be picking the worse case scenario in BB's with a 61mm wide PF30 by Specialized and if my frame deal comes thru (it's looking a little less hopeful as days pass now) I'll gladly throw in a Wheels Mfg BB.....I'll remove the o-rings that interface with the BB itself and use Loctite 609 to install it just as I did with my EVO and I'm quite confident it will be silent.

I just did a clinic yesterday that involved 4 hours of relentless drills that had me (6'2" 190lbs) absolutely HAMMERING my pedals and there was not a hint of sound anywhere. The solutions available, along with a smartly pressed installation (one side at a time, take your time, install pedals immediately after press-in and let sit overnight) will net good results and you can enjoy any bike you want.

My $.02

SundayNiagara

Thanks.

loimpact

And just to be sure.......If you find a bike you like that happens to come with BSA already in the frame.....GREAT! Certainly a head-start on making it work but I just want to assure folks here that (as the OP), I thought for sure I was doomed and I now have several months of silence under my seat and I can attest that it works. (and mine was annoying the heck outta me).

I'll be the role of the fear-monger in another thread. (I like to worry as much or more than the next person) But in the case of the BB/PF30 quandary, I think it's a cat that can be skinned!

loimpact

Well, shoot!! I might've jinxed myself! I'm getting some creaking and it appears rather sudden. I'm hearing it from both sides now, not just the DS side. (shrug)

I'm tempted to just knock the Wheels Mfg BB out, redress with 609 and try again but I might just pull the cranks out, clean, regrease and see how if it's still there after a few rides.

I'd love to know where the movement is coming from. On both sides the flange of the Wheels Mfg BB is so tightly & evenly snug up against the BB shell that I'm quite confuzzled.

Campag4life

loimpact,
I would try leaving the BB in and pulling the crank, clean/regrease reinstall, adjust preload and see how it goes. Be sure to check your pedals and of course chainring torx bolt torque.

What kind of crank are you using? Any spacers or adaptors?

loimpact

Ya, that's what I was thinking too. Don't wanna pull it if I don't have to but I know that sound.

FSA K-lite cranks w/ FSA chainrings. No spacers....only the wavy washer. (If you recall, I had removed 1 of 2 spacers and ultimately no spacers because I was getting some preload binding otherwise). Chainring bolts are snug. I run Ultegra pedals with Spesh Expert road shoes which are all fairly new and surfaces quite slick, thus my suspicion is bb. I'll try and tear-down tonight.

Thx

Campag4life

Be sure to check your lateral spacing to ensure there is adequate preload since you have played around with your spacing due to binding. If the wave washer isn't adequately compressed, the inner race isn't preloaded and the bearings can click/rattle.

loimpact

Ya, lateral spacing is perfect. (I had 2 washers + wavy washer with oem c'dale cups, then went from 1 spacer to zero & *just* wavy washer to get precisely 50% compression). I always use a torque wrench, blah blah.

Anywhoooo......I tore down & regreased last night and all was great....LAST NIGHT. I get out this morning and within 15 minutes, creaking was back. (mind you, I didn't pull the BB so I was all smiles thinking..."Yes, the 609 really *was* still holding and my creak was somewhere in the 'gunk' I cleaned out last night). But alas.........creak is back just as loud as ever. And it's definitely BB. I unclipped & rode on my heels and the sound's still there so not shoes/pedals. I physically wrench on cranks w/ my hands & the BB is definitely the culprit.

So now......I won't pull the BB til tomorrow as I have a race early tomorrow morning.......but what do I want to knock the Wheels Mfg BB out with? I meant to stick my Park BBT30.3 tool in there last night & see where it hits but forgot before I put it all back together & figured I'd check with you as I really can't find anything on Wheel's website or youtube talking about "removal" and don't want to bang on that thing in the wrong places.

TIA!

Campag4life

You could try a narrow wood dowel and hammer...around the inside and 'away' from the inner race. Don't pound on the protrusive inner race edge as that can spoil the bearing. Tap, Tap, Tap around the inside edge of the alloy casing should knock it out.
Clean, re-Loctite and you should be good. Hopefully it will hold longer next time.
Good luck.

loimpact

Well......I gave it a whirl, but that puppy will not BUDGE!! I went thru 3 dowels (2 of which I custom made out of oak dowel when the regular furniture-type dowel splintered like a cheap balsa. I made a progression of both my efforts and cunning (used a urethane mallet to ensure preservation of the dowel)......but no-joy.

I'd hate to have to do it, but I'm not opposed to trashing this BB just to get it out eventually. For now......I just cleaned every bit of splintered wood (looked like a lumber yard blew up in my BB...LOL) and put it all back together so I can still ride the thing.

After the whack-fest tonight....I think I'd actually like to get a removal tool that would extract with opposing force to get them out rather than impact. Any suggestions for a version I could use on this Wheels Mfg BB?

allen254

Are you sure it's you crank or BB i had a noise come from that area too a while back turned out to be a my casette, needed to be regreased and needed a good tightening

TMonk

someone needs to make a diagnostic flow chart for creaking and non-threaded BB frames.

loimpact

Ya, definitely BB related. I know other noises my bike makes but definitely BB in this case. I'm tempted to drip some TriFlow in there & see if it'll seep in just cuz. I think soon we'll just have to store our plastic bikes in vats of mineral oil at night.

Naaaah.....we just need another new BB standard.....LMAO!!!

Campag4life

First, I admire your temperament. You have a good attitude loimpact.

Yes, please don't give up on removing the pricey BB with good bearing life left without destroying the BB. You have a couple more options.

Here's the first. Honestly mechanics are in some ways analogous to detailing a car or motorcycle. If the paint is less than pristine, always start polishing with the least invasive polishing media to restore a high luster. If more is necessary, then go there. If not, don't to preserve as much paint or clear coat as possible. Not all paint surfaces need to be wet sanded. I hope you appreciate this analogy and believe you will because you are a smart guy.

So what to do. You need to ramp up the force without destroying the BB. Key is, whatever force you use, NEVER pound on the bearing as it will 'Brinell' the bearings and destroy them.
Def. of Brinell:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinelling

So, you need more force and can't pound on the bearings, so what to do.
Two options.

Option 1:
Similar to what you were trying with wooden dowl only wood is too flexible. You need a metal punch of small diameter...but not too small. Just small enough in diameter to fit between the ID of the internal BB shell and OD of the inner race so you don't bang on the bearing inner race which will Brinell the bearings and spoil the BB. So find such a metal punch and use a slightly heavier hammer. I like a 3 lb short handled sledge hammer for stubborn stuff...and you can control pressure with your hand...how hard to hit it.
An excellent vid of how to remove a PF Specialized BB from a Mtb...same as a Sworks frame:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmOSu8JGJks
Wood has too low a modulus for how bonded your BB is. So hammer blows impart less dislodging energy to the BB and your Loctite bond is stubborn which in one way is good...but just not for getting it apart. So you need a more staccato energy transfer to break the bond of the Loctite. Btw, staccato force trumps dull force every time for breaking things apart. It is the predicate of an impact wrench for example with hammering torque...something I will be firing up in a couple of days when my wheel hub/bearing replacement shows up for my car...I have a bad front wheel bearing on the pass side. Wish me well but I digress.
So try a metal punch or rod...tap, tap, tap around the periphery.

Option 2:
More pricey but if you are going to play in the land of Press Fit BB's, maybe a worthwhile investment. This is a 'tulip' style bearing extraction tool. Only caveat is being careful not to score the inside of your carbon shell with the outer edge of this tool when it expands into its free state as you push it though the opposite side of the BB shell:
Amazon.com : Park Tool Press Fit Removal Tool for Internal Bottom Bracket Bearings : Bike Hand Tools : Sports & Outdoors

Personally, I would try option 1 first as it is much cheaper.

A footnote. I believe you have the Wheel Mfg BB which is alloy. I also believe the bearings for these alloy BB cups are 'serviceable'. Even though it is very remote, your bearings could be moving slightly within their respective alloy cups creating your creak. Again, this is a remote option, but possible your Loctite bond between OD of bearing cups to ID of carbon shell is good and the bearing OD to the alloy cup ID, this interface is creaking.

So a third option:
Pound out your BB any way you like...OK to pound on even the inner race of the bearings as the bearings are cheap and can destroyed if intent is to replace them. Knock the bearings out.
Once out, replace the bearings...those cups take standard BB30 bearings...about 7 bux a piece from a bearing store on line. Once you pound the bearings out of the cups which is easier off the bike of course...press in fresh bearings 'with Loctite'.

In summary, you have many options and even though the above takes some level of patience which you have based upon your good attitude, you will get it resolved.

Those are my thoughts and keep us posted brother and keep the faith.

loimpact

I am thinking almost exactly along those same lines. (Thanks for the vote of confidence, btw. I've not always been as patient & could have easily destroyed the BB last night had I not taken long enough to let my cooler head prevail... )

That said, I really like option 2. What's more (and I actually want to see what the difference is.....maybe I'll call Park today if they're working)........I think I can just do the RT-1 tool as it even specifically states for PF30. RT-1 ------> Head Cup Remover | Park Tool There's an RT-2 (oversize) which would probably even force itself 'moreso' to the OD bias but I don't think it would be necessary and would only create more drag against the bare carbon bore on ultimate removal. So it looks like the RT-1 and the BBT 90.3 only differ slightly in their "tulip" angle. The 90.3 makes a more abrupt bend whereas the RT-1 tapers more slowly.

I also think I can easily overcome any last-pass removal hazards because with the Wheels Mfg BB.....both halves are overlapping cylinders, so the first half will have little to no shell contact at all and the 2nd half, I'll simply continue the 2nd half + RT-1 all the way out of the shell and just remove the 2nd half outside of the bike.

I also thought how you're thinking on the bearing/cup interface. I'd almost like to cut one of these in half to measure tolerance of bearing channel but I'll save that for another day. After being unsuccessful last night, I decided to pack a much heavier load of grease trying to see if I could even work some front & back of the bearing channel (probably not but worth a try) as I think that is a real possibility....even if remote.

Thanks again!

Campag4life

Please keep us posted loimpact with your progress which will be informative to all.
Good luck.

CafeVelo

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but here's my fix: I know a lot of people with PF30/BB30 that refuses to shut up. I've seen it fixed with a praxis bottom bracket and loctite 609, but that sort of locks you with one crankset for such an expensive fix. I recently built a caad10, and knowing what I know about the bottom bracket, I didn't give it a chance. I got one of these (actually an lbs gave it to me, but I was going to buy one either way) FSA BB30 to 68mm English Thread Bottom Bracket Adaptor in Tree Fort Bikes Bottom Bracket Adaptors (cat1208) .

Its pressed in the bottom bracket shell and secured with loctite 609, and i would venture that it's a fairly permanent installation, since it fits very snug. Anyway, I built the bike with a threaded bottom bracket and it doesn't seem any worse for it, and it's silent, even when I big-ring it up a climb.

f4rrest

Considering how resistant the Wheels Mfg bottom bracket is to being pressed out, it's not the source of the creak. Creaks require enough play for movement. Obviously, if you could cause play by pedaling force alone, you'd also have a loose enough fit to press it out easily using wooden dowels and hammer.

I think you might be on to something with the interface between the bearings to bottom bracket. You may be able to remedy it without removing the bottom bracket. If it were mine, I'd try Loctite 290 wicking. I used to use it when I did prototype engineering and lots of machining. It's applied to press fits after they are assembled, and capillary action draws it into the mating surfaces. Note: I've not tried this on a bottom bracket. But if it were my bike, I'd consider it. (I have an Evo with PF30, so been following this thread.)

So, if you can get past the dust seals on the bearings, and if there isn't a bunch of grease in the bearing-to-bottom bracket interface, then you might be able to carefully apply a drop or two and let it draw in. Don't get it in the bearing itself though! Clean off the excess after a couple minutes.

loimpact

Thanks for the thought. Ya....one of the things that reeeeeally bothered my brain this week was when I pulled everything apart, greased it all up, then had no creaks all that night but DID after about 20 minutes into the next morning's ride. I had to wonder....."Where'd the creaks hide for half a day?" We'll see what happens tomorrow. I've got crit practice & that'll usually get it creakin' after a few laps at hard wattage.

Totally unrelated but.........Curious about your impressions of Allez vs EVO. To my surprise, I might be picking up an Allez soon. It'll be a double-jump for me as when my S-Works Tarmac deal fell thru, I calmed my zeal and thought maybe a CAAD or Allez to scratch my itch for a 2nd road bike & the Allez could scratch 2 itches.........First, for aluminum vs CF and second, Spesh geometry vs C'dale.

TIA for any of your thoughts/impressions.

f4rrest

It's not a fair comparison in my case. The Allez is from 2008, originally had heavy wheels and sora. The Evo Supersix is 2014 and cost 4x with much better components and wheels.

The Evo is noticeably lighter and better looking.

Both have a similar race geometry, and I've used both for commuting, fast group rides, and 100+ mile rides.

I've upgraded the Allez, and am still quite happy with it, particular since I can run square taper BB, which is needed for my powercranks.

Campag4life

I respectfully don't agree with your take even though your advice reflects thought and is well intentioned. First, just because extricating the Wheel Mfg is difficult, doesn't mean it isn't the source of the creak. Creaks are micro displacement...can even be a toggling within the bore where one area of interface of the cup is adequately glued but another isn't.. So the creak may or may not be due to the OD of the alloy cups creaking within the carbon BB shell due to incomplete bonding of Loctite.

Also, I would never try to wick in Loctite 290 into this environment. Its too contaminated with grease and wicking is never as effective as re-Loctiting properly which is not difficult. Removal of the bearings, complete cleaning/decontamination and re-Loctiting via press back into the alloy cups off the bike is a 10 minute job.

Also, even though remote, lets not overlook that one of the bearings is bad and the source of noise. Beauty of BB30 based BB's is...replacement bearings are cheap.

In summary none of this is hard or rocket science. If the alloy cups are hard to remove from the frame...knock the crap out of the cups including on the edge of the inner race and once you have the Wheel Mfg alloy cups off the bike, knock out the bearings and for $14 replace with fresh BB30 bearings with Loctite and reassemble.

My counterpoint...
Cheers forest

f4rrest

You can fashion a tulip-style removal tool out of EMT (electrical metal conduit) and a few bandsaw or hacksaw cuts, and you can adjust the the splay by applying an appropriate amount of bend to it.

SundayNiagara

I am finally going to see the Z5 today and will report back.

loimpact

Ok, need a little help here. I picked up the Park Tool RT-1 and it did the trick!! (I was a little concerned on the small ID portion, but worked great and the other, larger ID size was great)

I have pics of residual as I was curious to see myself and there is definitely a bias toward the bottom where I believe the Loctite pooled and likewise in the grooves where I removed the o-rings from the Wheels Mfg BB.

As such (and thus my problem) I'm having a heck of a time getting some heavier deposits of loctite from the 5 to 7 o'clock positions in the BB shell. I've tried rubbing alcohol to death and it's just not enough. I'm hesitant to grab the mineral spirits but am needing something heavier.

My thumbnail = fail
Hard plastic bondo spreader = fail
Index finger nail = fail

.....and I don't want to scrape anything metal against the shell.

TIA for any suggestions!

EDIT: In the meantime I just remembered an old trick used to clean hard water deposits off of plumbing fixtures. I soaked pieces of paper towel in rubbing alcohol and have adhered them to the problem areas in the BB shell. I'm hoping this will do what vinegar does to calcium & break down with constant contact. (without me having to babysit, of course)

Campag4life

Hi loimpact,
Can you be more specific about where this Loctite build up is? You say heavy deposits at 5 and 7 o'clock? Is this inside of the bore or the outside face of the bore?

Reason I ask is..if inside the bore, this build up may reflect a lack of concentricity of the carbon bore ID itself. Why? Because most probably your Wheel Mfg cup is concentric. When Loctiting a cup into a carbon bore, the cup is in effect a male mold. Loctite follows this mold and will generally adhere more tenaciously to carbon when removing the cup...because the carbon ID is a more irregular surface compared to the machined alloy cup OD.

Conventional wisdom is not to clean residual Loctite from a carbon bore when changing the bearings of a BB. Why? Two reasons:
1. Loctite left has to follow the concentricity of the male mold aka alloy cup BB which creates a rounder hole for re-Loctiting in a new or same BB.
2. Loctite left in effect protects the carbon thereby preserving the life the carbon shell. It further is a great bonding agent of course when new Loctite is used to reinstall the BB or new BB.

If you must remove residual Loctite, you may want to try acetone on a cloth with a hint of abrasion...like a Scotchbrite. Just be careful not to erode the ID of the carbon shell itself.

HTH