Trek recalls nearly 900K bikes for possible crash hazard
04-28-15, 01:38 PM
#101
a77impala
I believe a dork disc is the answer to this problem. Placed between the dropout and quick release handle. One on each side so if switched around still protected!
04-28-15, 03:02 PM
#102
Flyin' under the radar
I was being condescending, and I should not have been. Internet pissing matches typically don't bring out the best in people -- my apologies.
On this it seems we agree. @nhluhr: Please note that I am not being myopic; I'm being extremely specific with my language, for a reason. There is:
The crux of my argument this entire time has been that the qr design is not flawed precisely because it functions without error. You've already admitted that the qr skewer functions great. If I understand you correctly, you feel that the qr skewer is bad design. But you're equivocating bad design with flawed design, and they're two different things. That's what I've been trying to point out and make clear this entire time.
When you refer to a large portion of the population to support your argument, and state that they can't figure out how to use a quick release skewer, that's pretty much the definition of appealing to the stupidity of the population. I said you were doing that because that's exactly what you're doing.
If you want to argue that a quick release skewer is so overly complicated to operate that the problem cannot possibly reside with the end user, fine. In my defense, I'll say that on the flip side of the coin I don't consider proper operation of a quick release skewer to be a marker for higher intelligence either. Nevertheless, considering there've been a whopping 3 individuals who've injured themselves from misuse of the skewer, I'd say that "pervasive misuse" is a bit of a stretch.
My point is that the intelligence (or lack thereof) of the end-user is independent from the design. Your knowledge of how to install an oil filter, or lack of knowledge, has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the oil filter's design is flawed. If it functions without error when installed correctly, it does not have design flaw. It may have good design (easy to install correctly), or bad design (difficult to install correctly), but it does not have flawed design.
Being smart does not preclude one from doing something stupid -- I have absolutely done stupid things (and learned from those mistakes), and plenty of people much smarter than me have done things that aren't smart. I generalized too much by referring to someone who did something stupid as being a stupid person. But I certainly cannot call mis-installing a quick release skewer to be a smart action, can you?
I certainly won't lose any sleep over the future of quick release skewers. That said, if they can be re-designed to preclude mis-installation, I'm all for it.
- Good design - functions without error, and is intuitive to use.
- Bad design - functions without error, but is not intuitive to use.
- Flawed design - functions with error, and/or does not function as intended.
The crux of my argument this entire time has been that the qr design is not flawed precisely because it functions without error. You've already admitted that the qr skewer functions great. If I understand you correctly, you feel that the qr skewer is bad design. But you're equivocating bad design with flawed design, and they're two different things. That's what I've been trying to point out and make clear this entire time.
The problem is that proper operation is not at all obvious to a very large proportion of the population that ends up having to use one. On top of that, it can be improperly used in a way that will lead inexperienced users to believe that it has been properly fastened, creating a potentially dangerous condition.
That's not a problem with those people, that is a problem with the design of the product. Saying that the users are simply stupid isn't just insulting, it's also factually wrong. Even if it weren't wrong, it doesn't matter because pervasive misuse of quick-release skewers creates a dangerous condition for users of the product and manufacturers have a responsibility to prevent that.
I reject your examples. If the correct orientation of the oil filter is difficult to determine and it is possible o incorrectly install the oil filter in a way that makes it seem like it is installed perfectly, then the oil filter design is flawed. If putting the filter in the wrong way requires forcing it awkwardly, yes, people will still do it, but at least it will be pretty clear that something is wrong. This problem is mitigated by the fact that few people change their own oil these days. I don't know how easy or difficult it is to install an oil filter correctly.
The scalpel example is simply outrageous. Removing and reattaching the front wheel of a bicycle is not surgery and is not performed exclusively by experts with years of advanced training.
The scalpel example is simply outrageous. Removing and reattaching the front wheel of a bicycle is not surgery and is not performed exclusively by experts with years of advanced training.
YOU are appealing to the alleged stupidity of the population, not me. The only reason to make this claim is to feel good about yourself because you know how to use a QR skewer. That's not exactly a high bar. Using a QR does not require intelligence. Nor does misusing a QR require stupidity. Among the sorts of people who have incorrectly installed a QR skewer:
I can absolutely guarantee you that lots of people lots smarter than you or me have improperly tightened a QR skewer. Because it's easy to do!
- Professors
- Rocket scientists
- Doctors
- Probably the President
- Bankers
- Software engineers
- Auto mechanics
- Etc
I can absolutely guarantee you that lots of people lots smarter than you or me have improperly tightened a QR skewer. Because it's easy to do!
But really, what you want to believe doesn't matter. Whether because it's a bad design or because people are stupid, it seems pretty clear that the quick-release skewer has a hard time ahead of it in terms of continuing design compromises to ward off litigation. Continuing with this design just isn't pragmatic anymore.
