Sram eTap
09-23-16, 07:16 AM
#402
Senior Member
You can.
When approaching a hill, tap both shifters to change from the large to the small chainring. Let go of the left and continue to hold the right and the rear RD will move to a smaller cog. With a little bit of practice you can time it and get to the correct cog and not have to change your cadence.
You can power shift.
When approaching a hill, tap both shifters to change from the large to the small chainring. Let go of the left and continue to hold the right and the rear RD will move to a smaller cog. With a little bit of practice you can time it and get to the correct cog and not have to change your cadence.
You can power shift.
On Di2, you can simultaneously call for a front and back shift and the system works it out. Happens so fast it's hard to tell what happened first.
In point of fact, with the shifting controls of eTap, there is no way to simultaneously invoke both a front and back shift.
J.
09-23-16, 07:29 AM
#403
On Your Left
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,434 Times
in
1,187 Posts
That's not double shifting. Thats two separate shifts and were rider sequenced.
On Di2, you can simultaneously call for a front and back shift and the system works it out. Happens so fast it's hard to tell what happened first.
In point of fact, with the shifting controls of eTap, there is no way to simultaneously invoke both a front and back shift.
J.
On Di2, you can simultaneously call for a front and back shift and the system works it out. Happens so fast it's hard to tell what happened first.
In point of fact, with the shifting controls of eTap, there is no way to simultaneously invoke both a front and back shift.
J.
It sure feels simultaneous to me. But then i don't ride in a Pro Peloton.
09-23-16, 08:48 AM
#404
Fatty McFatcakes
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Krispy Kreme
Posts: 986
Bikes: Aero Cheeseburger w/ Sr(h)am eBacon
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
I'm a shimano fanboy over and over. Hate SRAM mechanical, but mainly because I started with Shimano and am more accustomed to it. Have ridden SRAM many times and dislike many things about it. Was never a fan of the hood ergonomics either. That being said, I rode a test bike last month that was equipped with the Etap and OMG, I WANT IT. The hoods are the closest shape I've seen/felt to DA 7900 (Which is my favorite DA HOOD shape). Super comfortable and the process in how they shift is simple and easy to get accustomed to. I love the feedback from the lever/button also. MUCH better than the Di2 in my opinion. Nice crisp click from the button that tells you that you have engaged the shift.
I agree. since my post, I have known 3 people who have had so many issues with their FD that they got tired of it and sold the groupo and went back to mechanical. ALL 3 OF THEM. Thats not a great sign. Yes, they had them professionally adjusted multiple multiple times. I love going and hanging out at my LBS, but not when its for a mechanical issue that is forcing me to go.
09-23-16, 08:54 AM
#405
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 8,088
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
You can.
When approaching a hill, tap both shifters to change from the large to the small chainring. Let go of the left and continue to hold the right and the rear RD will move to a smaller cog. With a little bit of practice you can time it and get to the correct cog and not have to change your cadence.
You can power shift.
When approaching a hill, tap both shifters to change from the large to the small chainring. Let go of the left and continue to hold the right and the rear RD will move to a smaller cog. With a little bit of practice you can time it and get to the correct cog and not have to change your cadence.
You can power shift.
That's not double shifting. Thats two separate shifts and were rider sequenced.
On Di2, you can simultaneously call for a front and back shift and the system works it out. Happens so fast it's hard to tell what happened first.
In point of fact, with the shifting controls of eTap, there is no way to simultaneously invoke both a front and back shift.
J.
On Di2, you can simultaneously call for a front and back shift and the system works it out. Happens so fast it's hard to tell what happened first.
In point of fact, with the shifting controls of eTap, there is no way to simultaneously invoke both a front and back shift.
J.
To be fair, it's not a feature I use often and probably won't even miss it. My timing was hardly ever right with Shimano double shifts, so I doubt I'll notice much.
09-23-16, 10:17 AM
#406
Senior Member
With Shimano's Di2, you don't have to time it. You just simultaneously shift both front and back.
I spent some time working through this on the Di2 programming. I set my RD for a long press to shift three cogs on the cassette. I ride a Compact 50/34 on the front and a 12/28 on the back. I double shift all the time, especially in those cases where the terrain transitions from flat to climb or descent to flat. In the first case (flat to climb), I push both the small paddles on the shifters simultaneously, that shifts me to the small wring and up three gears on the back from where I was before. In the second case, (descent to flat), I push both of the bigger paddles on the shifters simultaneously and the FD shifts to the big ring and the RD shifts 3 cogs smaller on the rear. In both cases, I simply depress and hold both shifters.
What that does with my gearing is quickly position me on just about the same gain/gear inches on the other chain ring and then I can go about shifting as required. In both cases the paddles are depressed simultaneously and the smarts in the Di2 system figures it out and shifts accordingly. I cannot tell which shifts first but it is quickly in the new configuration for the drive train.
I don't think that the system is simultaneously shifting but at a user level it is simultaneous with respect to the controls and the system sorts it out. There is no need to sequence the front and back shifting in any way.
Looking forward to installing my new D-fly and the new battery this week and then being able to fiddle with the set up myself (to my heart's content) with the new phone and tablet software from Shimano.
J.
09-23-16, 10:29 AM
#407
On Your Left
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,434 Times
in
1,187 Posts
The "timing" is knowing how long to hold the paddle so it stops in the correct cog.
For example i'm in the large chainring and the 23 cog and I can move to the small chainring and a 14 cog in a simple touch of the paddles.
09-23-16, 10:36 AM
#408
Senior Member
With eTap you just press both and release one.
The "timing" is knowing how long to hold the paddle so it stops in the correct cog.
For example i'm in the large chainring and the 23 cog and I can move to the small chainring and a 14 cog in a simple touch of the paddles.
The "timing" is knowing how long to hold the paddle so it stops in the correct cog.
For example i'm in the large chainring and the 23 cog and I can move to the small chainring and a 14 cog in a simple touch of the paddles.
But, do note that you can program Di2 systems for continuous shifting on the RD as well. I had that for a year and found that it was less than ideal.
J.
Last edited by JohnJ80; 09-23-16 at 12:30 PM.
09-23-16, 01:50 PM
#409
Senior Member
I haven't ridden eTap but I want to put it on my current mech bike next year (I will take a look at the FSA stuff though).
I did have my Di2 system programmed to be almost the same as eTap (continuous shifting etc...) such that it was the same with minor unimportant differences. I also never double shifted until I read some things about it. So I'm familiar with the process. Being able to double shift simultaneously is better and makes a significant difference to me.
That all said, there is a lot to like about eTap and wireless. Raises the bar a bit for sure. However, I'm pretty sure that the main reason they picked that shifting protocol was to get around patents. Apparently the primary obstacle to designing an elec shifting system is avoiding patents owned by others.
I think eTap is great - that's not the issue. There are many positive attributes to the SRAM system. The two cons I see are the (1) lack of double shifting and (2) the lack of configurability/programmability for user interface and operation. For my purposes of retrofitting a mech bike, that wouldn't be enough to not do it.
J.
09-23-16, 02:03 PM
#410
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 569
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
That's not double shifting. Thats two separate shifts and were rider sequenced.
On Di2, you can simultaneously call for a front and back shift and the system works it out. Happens so fast it's hard to tell what happened first.
In point of fact, with the shifting controls of eTap, there is no way to simultaneously invoke both a front and back shift.
J.
On Di2, you can simultaneously call for a front and back shift and the system works it out. Happens so fast it's hard to tell what happened first.
In point of fact, with the shifting controls of eTap, there is no way to simultaneously invoke both a front and back shift.
J.
oldnslow's point is that the shifting is fast enough to feel like it's almost simultaneous.
With di2, which has dual shifters for front and rear it is possible to double shift simultaneously.
There are pros and cons to both systems. It would be hard to say which is superior; they have a different mix of features, strengths and weaknesses.
For me, the reduced bulk of the hoods, the lack of wires, light weight, intuitive nature of the shifting and much larger paddles outweigh the slickness, speed and quietness of shimano shifting.
09-23-16, 02:58 PM
#411
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 8,088
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
I had never updated my di2 from the original firmware so I was still tapping buttons so things weren't as simultaneous for me with Shimano but still fast enough to do the trick when needed. I bet with a little practice eTap will be good enough for me.
09-25-16, 01:04 AM
#412
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 569
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
What's going on with sram? Why is their shifting noticeably rougher at every price point compared to shimano?
Obviously, they haven't been around as long as shimano, but that would give them an established model to emulate and improve upon?
I'm really rooting for them but lack of refinement in shifting and a lack of braking power always make it difficult. The ergonomics simply seem superior (etap vs di2) in terms of the normal sized hoods and super intuitive and very large shift paddles but they can't seem to take that next step and make shifting smooth.
Obviously, they haven't been around as long as shimano, but that would give them an established model to emulate and improve upon?
I'm really rooting for them but lack of refinement in shifting and a lack of braking power always make it difficult. The ergonomics simply seem superior (etap vs di2) in terms of the normal sized hoods and super intuitive and very large shift paddles but they can't seem to take that next step and make shifting smooth.
09-25-16, 05:26 AM
#413
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
What's going on with sram? Why is their shifting noticeably rougher at every price point compared to shimano?
Obviously, they haven't been around as long as shimano, but that would give them an established model to emulate and improve upon?
I'm really rooting for them but lack of refinement in shifting and a lack of braking power always make it difficult. The ergonomics simply seem superior (etap vs di2) in terms of the normal sized hoods and super intuitive and very large shift paddles but they can't seem to take that next step and make shifting smooth.
Obviously, they haven't been around as long as shimano, but that would give them an established model to emulate and improve upon?
I'm really rooting for them but lack of refinement in shifting and a lack of braking power always make it difficult. The ergonomics simply seem superior (etap vs di2) in terms of the normal sized hoods and super intuitive and very large shift paddles but they can't seem to take that next step and make shifting smooth.
I would criticize DI2 in a similar fashion to what you say about SRAM. The wiring harness is absurdly inelegant. Why couldn't Shimano have introduced wireless from the outset or at least caught up to it by now? Surely they saw wireless coming from SRAM and could have beaten it to market. See, that has nothing to do with making the shift. And neither does the notion of buttery smooth. It is just about niceties. Some folks care. Some folks don't.
As far as braking power is concerned, I have never noticed a problem with it, but then I am a flatlander so that observation may not tell the complete story.
SRAM has staked out its territory and seems to be satisfied with it. Keep in mind that the conglomerate of brands under the greater SRAM banner represents the largest maker/marketer of bicycling (non-frame) components in the world. Overall they must be doing something right.
09-25-16, 06:38 AM
#414
Senior Member
It is because what you call "smooth" shifting is not universally desired. Neither is it universally regarded as a benefit, but rather it is one choice out of a range of possibilities. As a long time Red and Rival user and Ultegra/DA user before that I much prefer the pronounced clunk with SRAM to the "smooth as buttah" shifting of Shimano. SRAM shifting is not a grating struggle, suggesting that the company can't get it right. It is, in fact, completely competent, just tactilely different from Shimano.
I would criticize DI2 in a similar fashion to what you say about SRAM. The wiring harness is absurdly inelegant. Why couldn't Shimano have introduced wireless from the outset or at least caught up to it by now? Surely they saw wireless coming from SRAM and could have beaten it to market. See, that has nothing to do with making the shift. And neither does the notion of buttery smooth. It is just about niceties. Some folks care. Some folks don't.
As far as braking power is concerned, I have never noticed a problem with it, but then I am a flatlander so that observation may not tell the complete story.
SRAM has staked out its territory and seems to be satisfied with it. Keep in mind that the conglomerate of brands under the greater SRAM banner represents the largest maker/marketer of bicycling (non-frame) components in the world. Overall they must be doing something right.
I would criticize DI2 in a similar fashion to what you say about SRAM. The wiring harness is absurdly inelegant. Why couldn't Shimano have introduced wireless from the outset or at least caught up to it by now? Surely they saw wireless coming from SRAM and could have beaten it to market. See, that has nothing to do with making the shift. And neither does the notion of buttery smooth. It is just about niceties. Some folks care. Some folks don't.
As far as braking power is concerned, I have never noticed a problem with it, but then I am a flatlander so that observation may not tell the complete story.
SRAM has staked out its territory and seems to be satisfied with it. Keep in mind that the conglomerate of brands under the greater SRAM banner represents the largest maker/marketer of bicycling (non-frame) components in the world. Overall they must be doing something right.
I wonder what Shimano's response will be and when.
J.
09-25-16, 07:48 AM
#415
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
I agree with you about the wiring harnesses. It's time for them to be gone and kudos to SRAM for doing so. However the complete lack of programmability is a serious deficit and detracts from what looks like a nice implementation.
I wonder what Shimano's response will be and when.
J.
I wonder what Shimano's response will be and when.
J.
09-25-16, 10:47 AM
#416
On Your Left
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,434 Times
in
1,187 Posts
Lack of programability might be in the future. It does come with a USB dongle for communicating with the system. When they release the software that uses it, who knows what features will be unlocked.
Remember, eTap has been used by a number of pro teams and i'm sure they have access to software the general public does not have.
Remember, eTap has been used by a number of pro teams and i'm sure they have access to software the general public does not have.
09-25-16, 05:16 PM
#417
Senior Member
Lack of programability might be in the future. It does come with a USB dongle for communicating with the system. When they release the software that uses it, who knows what features will be unlocked.
Remember, eTap has been used by a number of pro teams and i'm sure they have access to software the general public does not have.
Remember, eTap has been used by a number of pro teams and i'm sure they have access to software the general public does not have.
eTap does have the ability to transmit it's gear positioning and other data - it's available on Garmin and other computers. But that's not the same thing.
It's a great thing to have eTap out there. It's going to set off the arms race again and that's a good thing for consumers. I think it would be great if wireless, user prograbbable from a rich set of features elec drive trains became the standard.
I was doing some looking into bike stuff on today while it rained. Came across Shimano's enclosed hub that has a wireless shifter connection. That means that Shimano probably has enough prior art in the patent world to be able to do wireless if they wanted to. If so, means that we could have a real feature dog fight going here soon.
J.
09-25-16, 05:19 PM
#418
Senior Member
J.
09-25-16, 06:02 PM
#420
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 569
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
It is because what you call "smooth" shifting is not universally desired. Neither is it universally regarded as a benefit, but rather it is one choice out of a range of possibilities. As a long time Red and Rival user and Ultegra/DA user before that I much prefer the pronounced clunk with SRAM to the "smooth as buttah" shifting of Shimano. SRAM shifting is not a grating struggle, suggesting that the company can't get it right. It is, in fact, completely competent, just tactilely different from Shimano.
I would criticize DI2 in a similar fashion to what you say about SRAM. The wiring harness is absurdly inelegant. Why couldn't Shimano have introduced wireless from the outset or at least caught up to it by now? Surely they saw wireless coming from SRAM and could have beaten it to market. See, that has nothing to do with making the shift. And neither does the notion of buttery smooth. It is just about niceties. Some folks care. Some folks don't.
As far as braking power is concerned, I have never noticed a problem with it, but then I am a flatlander so that observation may not tell the complete story.
SRAM has staked out its territory and seems to be satisfied with it. Keep in mind that the conglomerate of brands under the greater SRAM banner represents the largest maker/marketer of bicycling (non-frame) components in the world. Overall they must be doing something right.
I would criticize DI2 in a similar fashion to what you say about SRAM. The wiring harness is absurdly inelegant. Why couldn't Shimano have introduced wireless from the outset or at least caught up to it by now? Surely they saw wireless coming from SRAM and could have beaten it to market. See, that has nothing to do with making the shift. And neither does the notion of buttery smooth. It is just about niceties. Some folks care. Some folks don't.
As far as braking power is concerned, I have never noticed a problem with it, but then I am a flatlander so that observation may not tell the complete story.
SRAM has staked out its territory and seems to be satisfied with it. Keep in mind that the conglomerate of brands under the greater SRAM banner represents the largest maker/marketer of bicycling (non-frame) components in the world. Overall they must be doing something right.
Shimano's mech systems are so smooth, I don't feel as if there is as much of a pressing need to develop electronic shifting, although that's obviously the direction they're moving in.
6800 mech lever travel and speed of shifts is phenomenal. So little effort at the lever, such a fast quiet shift.
I've only tried SRAM's mtb systems. Shifts are not especially fast, they're not especially quiet, and there is the "feedback" or vibration of the thunk which doesn't have the refinement of shimano.
I do like campy's groups quite a bit; they've managed to make high tactile feedback shifting a strength rather than a weakness. It's certainly not apples to apples comparison however.
10-12-16, 09:11 AM
#421
Senior Member
So I have been reading about the long FD limiting screws issue and I decided to reach out to SRAM to inquire if they have a shorter one. They did but asked me to go through my LBS/Store to get one. So I contacted CompetitiveCylist where I bought my eTap and asked them to get it for me. I received both the UPPER and LOWER screws today. Not that I need it but I see that it's really close as well and I have a scratch on the crank arm when it was first installed.
UPDATE: So I was wondering if these are really the shorter screws. It looks pretty long to me. Also I know that one of the (upper?) limiting screw is reverse threaded and the thread looks the same to me. I don't want to mess up my current set-up so I sent email inquiry to SRAM.
UPDATE: So I was wondering if these are really the shorter screws. It looks pretty long to me. Also I know that one of the (upper?) limiting screw is reverse threaded and the thread looks the same to me. I don't want to mess up my current set-up so I sent email inquiry to SRAM.
Last edited by ARPRINCE; 10-12-16 at 02:52 PM.
