Thank God for Shimano and Investing in the Industry
01-31-16, 05:51 AM
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Oh, they're unhappy, that's for sure. Shimano is boning US retailers hard.
Fred Clements: Dealers speak out about the "S"-Word | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
Fred Clements: Dealers speak out about the "S"-Word | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
01-31-16, 06:06 AM
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Tell us something that hasn't been going on for close to 30 years -- yet Campy still survives and thrives
Campy has not had an OEM presence on anything for as long as i've been a cyclist (26 years) -- its usually specced out on custom builds by guys' who either race or are guys' who have been through a few other bikes and finally decide to step up --- thats the way it is now, thats the way it was in 1991 also
Regarding disc brake experience? -- Not that hard to purchase a few examples from Shim/Hope/Magura/ etc and see whats going on inside -- or perhaps even partner with Magura on something , but dont know if they would do that
The hierarchy is pretty easy: Chorus is roughly equivalent to Dura Ace, Record and Super Record is nicer,
Athena is a bit nicer stuff than Ultegra but not quite as nice as D-A, ---- Veloce is roughly equivalent to Ultegra, -- while Mirage and Xenon have got 105 covered
The performance gap between 105 and Dura Ace is huge . The gap between Chorus and Super Record is not nearly that large, - you are primarilly paying for lighter materials IMO with very similar performance
The performance gap between Mirage and Chorus is roughly the same as the gap between 105 and Dura Ace
Currently i have machines equipped with 105, Dura Ace, Veloce and Record, so i feel qualified to share an opinion at least from someone who has ridden most of these
FWIW --- I like Dura Ace a lot and Ultegra to a lesser extent --- i tolerate my 105 equipped machine. ITs not so bad as to make me want to toss the stuff and replace with D-A or Chorus , as it shifts adequately , -- from an appearance perspective, it looks pretty sharp on my blacked out Cannondale too, ---- but even compared to Veloce, the 105 stuff feels like a lower tiered recreational group and the Veloce feels "ready to race"
All of this is very subjective and subject to rider interpretation ----- and regarding being "ready to race" - if i really wanted to pin on a number, having a bike with Xenon or Shimano Sora would not stop me --- although i'd rather use downtube shifters than Sora if given a choice
Campy has not had an OEM presence on anything for as long as i've been a cyclist (26 years) -- its usually specced out on custom builds by guys' who either race or are guys' who have been through a few other bikes and finally decide to step up --- thats the way it is now, thats the way it was in 1991 also
Regarding disc brake experience? -- Not that hard to purchase a few examples from Shim/Hope/Magura/ etc and see whats going on inside -- or perhaps even partner with Magura on something , but dont know if they would do that
The hierarchy is pretty easy: Chorus is roughly equivalent to Dura Ace, Record and Super Record is nicer,
Athena is a bit nicer stuff than Ultegra but not quite as nice as D-A, ---- Veloce is roughly equivalent to Ultegra, -- while Mirage and Xenon have got 105 covered
The performance gap between 105 and Dura Ace is huge . The gap between Chorus and Super Record is not nearly that large, - you are primarilly paying for lighter materials IMO with very similar performance
The performance gap between Mirage and Chorus is roughly the same as the gap between 105 and Dura Ace
Currently i have machines equipped with 105, Dura Ace, Veloce and Record, so i feel qualified to share an opinion at least from someone who has ridden most of these
FWIW --- I like Dura Ace a lot and Ultegra to a lesser extent --- i tolerate my 105 equipped machine. ITs not so bad as to make me want to toss the stuff and replace with D-A or Chorus , as it shifts adequately , -- from an appearance perspective, it looks pretty sharp on my blacked out Cannondale too, ---- but even compared to Veloce, the 105 stuff feels like a lower tiered recreational group and the Veloce feels "ready to race"
All of this is very subjective and subject to rider interpretation ----- and regarding being "ready to race" - if i really wanted to pin on a number, having a bike with Xenon or Shimano Sora would not stop me --- although i'd rather use downtube shifters than Sora if given a choice
01-31-16, 06:16 AM
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I wonder if you could explain all those gaps, because given that I click the shifter and it immediately responds, doing what I expect, (shimano 105), I hardly can think of big gaps in performance past this. It also changes up two or three gears on a swift, really, what else can you wish from a shifting mechaism? Or does soft /hard/"race ready" feel - whatever it is?- make you pay double or triple or XXX price?
01-31-16, 08:08 AM
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I don't know...my ultegra 6800 stuff is pretty dang nice and I don't really know how Campy could best it by so much that they have three levels of components above that kind of quality. It just works great and is easy to set up...and the brakes work. Dura Ace 9000 is about as good as it gets in my book today. That groupset is the bee's knees.
01-31-16, 08:52 AM
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Oh, they're unhappy, that's for sure. Shimano is boning US retailers hard.
Fred Clements: Dealers speak out about the "S"-Word | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
Fred Clements: Dealers speak out about the "S"-Word | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
However, I'm still not grasping how and where-from eg. Ribble buys its product that it sells from their own warehouse, and why eg. CC or Nashbar can't or won't do the same exact thing? Are they prohibited by ? from getting product other than from the US distributor?
01-31-16, 09:01 AM
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I don't know...my ultegra 6800 stuff is pretty dang nice and I don't really know how Campy could best it by so much that they have three levels of components above that kind of quality. It just works great and is easy to set up...and the brakes work. Dura Ace 9000 is about as good as it gets in my book today. That groupset is the bee's knees.
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01-31-16, 09:07 AM
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Hopefully I can answer that with an honest evaluation soon. I've got Ultegra 6800 on the new Lynskey and am putting 11 speed Campagnolo Athena on a NOS steel bike I'll be building up as soon as the parts come in. I went Campagnolo for the first time so I am eager to try it. To me the issue with Shimano is just the chunky looks of the new groupsets. It just looks wrong on a classic bike.
01-31-16, 09:20 AM
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Why do groupsets have to be classified by tier, and compared by cost, or potentially by weight? What each of us values is subjective, so worth is subjective, so unbiased comparison is impossible. I owned 2012 Veloce & Centaur at the same time I owned 105 5700. I never once thought about whether one was tier 3 and the other tier 5/6. It made no difference. I liked what I liked. To me, in that comparison, Campagnolo was a better fit.
If the only relevant basis of decision was best price, weight, and tier, we would all buy SRAM Force22 in BB30. It is 2nd tier, $15 more than Ultegra, and within 100g of DuraAce. By every classification system, there would be no reason to ever buy anything else. Luckily, we can all apply our own priorities, and don't need to justify them.
If the only relevant basis of decision was best price, weight, and tier, we would all buy SRAM Force22 in BB30. It is 2nd tier, $15 more than Ultegra, and within 100g of DuraAce. By every classification system, there would be no reason to ever buy anything else. Luckily, we can all apply our own priorities, and don't need to justify them.
01-31-16, 05:55 PM
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I certainly will post what I think about it. Not to worried about any of it. This bike will see light duty probably. I do agree that it is the best looking and certainly what I was looking for to complete the build. Just had to search around a bit to find all the parts as all the overseas sources (cheap) were out of stock on the full silver group set.
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01-31-16, 06:34 PM
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The US model is for dealers to buy from distributors. In the case of Shimano they sell through several distributors including one distributor they own. Part of the reason is it takes the manufacturer out of the business of handling numerous small orders. In Europe sales occur from the manufacturer. That's a big reason why online orders from overseas is cheaper.
Mfg sells to wholesaler/distributor for roughly cost of raw material, parts, labor * 2.
Wholesaler sells to retailer for mfg cost * 2.
Retailer sells to you for wholesale cost * 2
This is somewhat simplistic, the market varies and some items (such as built bicycles are do not have such a large mark up.)
01-31-16, 07:17 PM
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I just bought the 5800 brakes for $42 for the pair delivery charge $8 from Merlins. I had expected them to be OEM (i.e. not retail packaging). But they turned up in the retail packaging so its not as though the product being sold by Ribble/Merlins/CRC/Wiggle are in anyway different than the same product being sold in the US at double the price.
01-31-16, 07:44 PM
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Oh, they're unhappy, that's for sure. Shimano is boning US retailers hard.
Fred Clements: Dealers speak out about the "S"-Word | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
Fred Clements: Dealers speak out about the "S"-Word | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
That's a damn good question.
I just bought the 5800 brakes for $42 for the pair delivery charge $8 from Merlins. I had expected them to be OEM (i.e. not retail packaging). But they turned up in the retail packaging so its not as though the product being sold by Ribble/Merlins/CRC/Wiggle are in anyway different than the same product being sold in the US at double the price.
I just bought the 5800 brakes for $42 for the pair delivery charge $8 from Merlins. I had expected them to be OEM (i.e. not retail packaging). But they turned up in the retail packaging so its not as though the product being sold by Ribble/Merlins/CRC/Wiggle are in anyway different than the same product being sold in the US at double the price.
01-31-16, 07:53 PM
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01-31-16, 08:12 PM
#64
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Not sure how Shimano's pricing structure works, they do have distinct divisions for Europe, North America, Asia, etc. Several people that work in LBS, and at on-line stores, have said that they despise Shimano's policies about pricing and overseas sales of groupsets. My LBS told me to go ahead, no bad feelings about using the difference in pricing to my advantage, they cannot compete with US on-line stores on prices, much less the UK based on-line stores. I spend a good bit at our LBS, they realize that some things are going to be bought elsewhere, they concentrate on service and being helpful to those needing such. They take time to talk about things, and they listen to my questions, and they are plain, good folks.
I just installed an Ultegra groupset, from Ribble in my case, to upgrade from a SRAM Rival group. I am very pleased with the shifting and braking. I agree with the OP about the quality of the Shimano components, also, fit, finish and operation are noticeably better.
One thing I found lacking, the instructions that come with the Shimano are mostly warnings about incorrect assembly, or possible installation errors. I went to the Shimano North America website and downloaded the Dealer Manuals, as they call the shop documents, then printed them out and placed them in a binder, for reference. These are first rate, and very helpful, much better in their American English grammar and structure than a lot of documents originating in Japan, or other non-English speaking countries. Not being snobby, it just shows on how things are described, and explanations don't lose anything. Very well executed manuals, IMHO.
Bill
I just installed an Ultegra groupset, from Ribble in my case, to upgrade from a SRAM Rival group. I am very pleased with the shifting and braking. I agree with the OP about the quality of the Shimano components, also, fit, finish and operation are noticeably better.
One thing I found lacking, the instructions that come with the Shimano are mostly warnings about incorrect assembly, or possible installation errors. I went to the Shimano North America website and downloaded the Dealer Manuals, as they call the shop documents, then printed them out and placed them in a binder, for reference. These are first rate, and very helpful, much better in their American English grammar and structure than a lot of documents originating in Japan, or other non-English speaking countries. Not being snobby, it just shows on how things are described, and explanations don't lose anything. Very well executed manuals, IMHO.
Bill
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02-01-16, 08:04 AM
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I wouldn't pay a premium for any component brand.
But I still think that Shimano contributed to the death of SunTour. I've never quite forgiven them for that...
But I still think that Shimano contributed to the death of SunTour. I've never quite forgiven them for that...
02-01-16, 08:35 AM
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Suntour was the only party that brought about the demise of the company. They were regarded equally with Shimano up through the mid-80s. Their Superbe Pro stuff was beautiful and exceptionally functional, but they stubbornly refused to invest in the R&D to stay current re: technical developments in the industry. They simply chose not to keep up, and it cost them their life.
02-01-16, 09:14 AM
#67
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I just bought the 5800 brakes for $42 for the pair delivery charge $8 from Merlins. I had expected them to be OEM (i.e. not retail packaging). But they turned up in the retail packaging so its not as though the product being sold by Ribble/Merlins/CRC/Wiggle are in anyway different than the same product being sold in the US at double the price.
02-01-16, 09:20 AM
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Did the OEM groupset come with all the additional pieces? For example, the brakes came with brake pads, the STIs came with donut spacers, cable housing, cable crimps etc. Small things to be sure, but when your building a bike, nice to have them all there.
02-01-16, 09:25 AM
#69
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Did the OEM groupset come with all the additional pieces? For example, the brakes came with brake pads, the STIs came with donut spacers, cable housing, cable crimps etc. Small things to be sure, but when your building a bike, nice to have them all there.
02-01-16, 09:37 AM
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Since this thread has brought the Campy-files bashing Shimano, I will lend my support to the OP's initial praise for Shimano. I have Shimano components (Ultegra, Dura-Ace, 105 and LX) on all of my bikes and they have all performed admirably for me. They always work and have been very durable.
I had one bike with Campy components, bought new with a Chorus 10 group. I had continual problems with that group, and eventually sold it. The chains regularly wore out with much less than 2,000 miles (my Shimano chains always last more than 5,000 miles). The shifters got out of adjustment much more often than my Shimano groups, and local mechanics seemed to have more trouble adjusting them. A hub cracked in one of my wheels after less than 3 years of use, but fortunately the shop replaced it under warranty.
The best thing I can say about Campy is that you can sell used Campy parts more easily and for higher prices than Shimano, which is fortunate because I was able to unload my Chorus group without taking too large a bath. I will also say that it's nice that Campy shifters can be rebuilt, in contrast to Shimano, however my Chorus shifters needed rebuilding much, much sooner than when my Shimano shifters eventually wore out. In the interest of fairness, I will also admit that some Dura-Ace shifters that I bought wore out after only about one year of use, but they were replaced under warranty.
I posted this message not to bash Campy. They make fine components, and I wouldn't mind having them on a bike if I could afford to buy and maintain them. However, the Shimano-bashing by Campy-files gets rather tireless. Count me as a loyal and satisfied Shimano customer.
I had one bike with Campy components, bought new with a Chorus 10 group. I had continual problems with that group, and eventually sold it. The chains regularly wore out with much less than 2,000 miles (my Shimano chains always last more than 5,000 miles). The shifters got out of adjustment much more often than my Shimano groups, and local mechanics seemed to have more trouble adjusting them. A hub cracked in one of my wheels after less than 3 years of use, but fortunately the shop replaced it under warranty.
The best thing I can say about Campy is that you can sell used Campy parts more easily and for higher prices than Shimano, which is fortunate because I was able to unload my Chorus group without taking too large a bath. I will also say that it's nice that Campy shifters can be rebuilt, in contrast to Shimano, however my Chorus shifters needed rebuilding much, much sooner than when my Shimano shifters eventually wore out. In the interest of fairness, I will also admit that some Dura-Ace shifters that I bought wore out after only about one year of use, but they were replaced under warranty.
I posted this message not to bash Campy. They make fine components, and I wouldn't mind having them on a bike if I could afford to buy and maintain them. However, the Shimano-bashing by Campy-files gets rather tireless. Count me as a loyal and satisfied Shimano customer.
02-01-16, 10:06 AM
#71
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I've had maybe 4 or 5 different groupsets now, only one of them Campy. Oh how I miss that Campy. It will go on my next high-dollar steel build maybe 3 or 4 years from now. It was 10 speed Centaur on a steel Bianchi and I actually liked the feel and fit of the group better than my very beloved DA 9000 equipped bike.
But all of the 11 speed Shimano stuff is basically perfect. Everything in terms of shifting, brake geometry, and ergonomics has now trickled from DA 9000 down to Ultegra 6800 and 105 5800. They're essentially the same, save for material differences to save weight. I have 105 5700 on my Crockett and it works well, but is not nearly as nice as my DA 9000.
Shimano and Campy are both very representative of their cultures. The Shimano is precise and perfect, but the Campy feels great, is beautiful and also shifts very, very well.
Oh and I used to work full time at a shop, so I still get the employee discount and when it comes time to buy a group for the future steel build, I'm 100% buying online from Europe. It's just insane how the pricing works against U.S. dealers. And the more I hear/read/talk about it, the more complex the problem seems every time.
But all of the 11 speed Shimano stuff is basically perfect. Everything in terms of shifting, brake geometry, and ergonomics has now trickled from DA 9000 down to Ultegra 6800 and 105 5800. They're essentially the same, save for material differences to save weight. I have 105 5700 on my Crockett and it works well, but is not nearly as nice as my DA 9000.
Shimano and Campy are both very representative of their cultures. The Shimano is precise and perfect, but the Campy feels great, is beautiful and also shifts very, very well.
Oh and I used to work full time at a shop, so I still get the employee discount and when it comes time to buy a group for the future steel build, I'm 100% buying online from Europe. It's just insane how the pricing works against U.S. dealers. And the more I hear/read/talk about it, the more complex the problem seems every time.
02-01-16, 10:21 AM
#72
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Would you please quote the tireless Shimano bashing in this thread? I think you might be reading a lot into posts, because I read this as one of the most sedate CvS threads I have seen.
02-01-16, 10:25 AM
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I'm thankful that the big 3 exists and I hope Rotor and FSA are successful with their new groupsets. Competition spurs innovation.
02-01-16, 10:46 AM
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02-01-16, 10:47 AM
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