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Enve SES 4.5 AR - thoughts?

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Enve SES 4.5 AR - thoughts?

Old 12-14-17, 01:44 PM
  #151  
SethAZ
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Second, the Stampede Pass has a nominal width of 32mm, whike the 4.5 AR is optimized for tires of 28-30mm. A too-big tire can prevent the rim from smoothly capturing the airflow off the tire, compromising the purpose of the wheels. Not a huge issue, but one that I'd care about if I was dropping $3000 on a wheelset.
I'd care too, but it's not clear to me that exceeding the width of the rim by 1mm per side will cause the airflow to separate. So long as the airflow remains laminar around the tire, across the junction from the tire to the rim, and then following the gentle curve of the rim around to the back you pretty much got the benefit.

Yeah I'd have my own reservations about the 32mm Compass on these rims, but it would be the bead issue you pointed out rather than the airflow one.

The front rim diameter is 31mm. I'd be surprised if someone suddenly lost the aero benefits of these rims going with the tubeless compatible 35mm Compass tire. That's just 2mm wider than the rim on each side, and if the transition is gentle enough I highly doubt at typical riding speeds you'd see the flow separate coming around that tire. I'm no aerodynamic engineer so I could be wrong.
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Old 12-14-17, 02:19 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Second, the Stampede Pass has a nominal width of 32mm, whike the 4.5 AR is optimized for tires of 28-30mm. A too-big tire can prevent the rim from smoothly capturing the airflow off the tire, compromising the purpose of the wheels. Not a huge issue, but one that I'd care about if I was dropping $3000 on a wheelset.
For what it's worth, a set of nominal 28 mm Schwalbe Pro Ones measure 33.6 mm on these rims. (As reported by other owners, I don't have calipers myself.)

Enve recommends 28 mm tires for the clincher version and 30 mm for the tubular version of these rims.
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Old 12-14-17, 02:20 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by SethAZ View Post
Yeah I'd have my own reservations about the 32mm Compass on these rims, but it would be the bead issue you pointed out rather than the airflow one.
And that's plenty enough for me, and should be for anybody else. Why spend so much money and then run tires that the maker says not to use? I don't want to lose my teeth, and I don't want to damage my rims.
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Old 12-14-17, 02:58 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by SethAZ View Post
I'd care too, but it's not clear to me that exceeding the width of the rim by 1mm per side will cause the airflow to separate. So long as the airflow remains laminar around the tire, across the junction from the tire to the rim, and then following the gentle curve of the rim around to the back you pretty much got the benefit.

Yeah I'd have my own reservations about the 32mm Compass on these rims, but it would be the bead issue you pointed out rather than the airflow one.

The front rim diameter is 31mm. I'd be surprised if someone suddenly lost the aero benefits of these rims going with the tubeless compatible 35mm Compass tire. That's just 2mm wider than the rim on each side, and if the transition is gentle enough I highly doubt at typical riding speeds you'd see the flow separate coming around that tire. I'm no aerodynamic engineer so I could be wrong.
Enve thinks it matters:

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/11/the-new-normal-the-thinking-behind-wide-road-wheels/

Silca claims that going even veerrry slightly too wide for the wheel (i.e. due to PSI differences) can cost a few watts in crosswinds:

https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-5-tire-pressure-and-aerodynamics
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Old 12-14-17, 03:01 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
And that's plenty enough for me, and should be for anybody else. Why spend so much money and then run tires that the maker says not to use? I don't want to lose my teeth, and I don't want to damage my rims.
Seattle Forrest, I'm curious, what tires are you running on yours?

I'm using the 32mm Compass tires on my AeroClyde wheels, but my rims have the traditional bead hook so there's no problem. I was surprised to see these ENVEs come out without the traditional bead hook. I'd only seen that in MTB tires running at much lower pressures.
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Old 12-14-17, 03:30 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Enve thinks it matters:

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/11/the-...e-road-wheels/

Silca claims that going even veerrry slightly too wide for the wheel (i.e. due to PSI differences) can cost a few watts in crosswinds:

https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-...d-aerodynamics
The cyclingtips link isn't working, but the Silca one did. That was interesting, and thanks for linking it!

While that one specifically was talking about cross wind effects, it's very interesting in explaining why some of the modern shapes are what they are. For low angle winds it's still not clear to me that the 105 rule would be important, so the cross wind scenario would be a subset of the overall problem, not the whole problem. You can see some evidence of this when you look at the chart of the worn vs. unworn tire measurements, where the flat spot only caused a dramatic separation in performance between the two tires at crosswind angles greater than ten degrees.

It's entirely possible that in low wind situations the forward motion of the bike at high speed, and the change in relative angle of the air incoming to the tires, means that this really is a corner case, and not representative of the widest situations encountered during rides. Given the relationship with tire width, lower pressure, etc. on rider comfort and lower suspension losses, I'm just not sure where all the benefits and tradeoffs net out.

In my own specific case, given my AeroClyde wheels with a 28mm wide rim, it would be a tradeoff between marginal losses in high crosswinds due to the tire exceeding the rim width by 4mm, and the marginal gains in lower suspension losses incurred by riding that 32mm tire at lower pressures than I'd have to ride a 28mm tire in all riding conditions on imperfect road surfaces. I don't know where the math all comes out, but I suspect I'm still better off with the wider tire for my riding, my weight, and the roads I ride on.

The real question for me is whether a 28mm wide 46mm deep carbon rim like the ones I just built my wheelset with actually offer a substantial performance benefit over the same 32mm tires riding on 24mm wide, 25mm deep aluminum rims which these new wheels replace.

Anyhow, thanks for that article. It was interesting, and I definitely learned something from it, which I appreciate.
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Old 12-14-17, 04:28 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
Let’s stick to the facts.

Enve does not say not to use tires over 30mm - “optimized” does not mean that larger tires can’t be used.

What you fail to understand with your “plenty enough for me, and should be for anybody else“ bit is that there are folks out there that use larger tires for the extra volume/more aggressive tread because their rides include trails and surfaces that would suck on 28mm tires. Suck as in not be as fun due to lowers speeds and/or risk of rim damage.
You're confused. I was saying that Enve's recommendation is a good reason not to use non-tubeless tires, not that it's a good reason to only run 28s. Running wider tires will only slow you down and only while you have those tires mounted, you can change them whenever you like; running tires that don't attach to the rims properly could cause you to crash.
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Old 12-14-17, 04:29 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by SethAZ View Post
Seattle Forrest, I'm curious, what tires are you running on yours?

I'm using the 32mm Compass tires on my AeroClyde wheels, but my rims have the traditional bead hook so there's no problem. I was surprised to see these ENVEs come out without the traditional bead hook. I'd only seen that in MTB tires running at much lower pressures.
IRC Formula Pro Tubeless, at 28 mm (nominal, they measure somewhere around 32 mm on these rims).

I ran Pro Ones at 28 mm (again, nominal) but got too many sidewall cuts and switched.
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Old 12-14-17, 04:58 PM
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@TruthBomb

Enve specifically says not to use non-tubeless tires with these rims:

Originally Posted by Enve
Non-tubeless clincher tires are not recommended but tubeless tires can still be used with tubes.

https://enve.com/products/ses-4-5-ar/
You can call them and talk about it if you like.

You can run any tire you choose, but after what I spent on mine, I'm also not going to do something the manufacturer specifically says not to. I consider that basic common sense.

I'm not making this stuff up. I did some research about the product before I spent $3,000 on it. I know what I'm talking about.

You seem to want to argue about this, and that's not what I'm here for.
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Old 12-14-17, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
Can you link to where Enve recommends against using non-tubeless tires?
It's not a direct link because it's a dynamic page popup thingy, but go to this link. Click on the Technology link, and then click on the "Road Tubeless By Design" pane. It contains the following verbiage:

"Drawing on our experience designing and making the world’s best mountain bike rims, the SES 4.5 AR Disc features a hookless bead profile and tire-bed bead seat lock. This design prevents air loss from impacts or aggressive cornering loads, allows for an exacting tire and rim interface, improves air flow from tire to rim and saves weight. Non-tubeless clincher tires are not recommended but tubeless tires can still be used with tubes."

Then further down it says: "Can be used with inner tubes, in tubeless tires only"

You’re assuming that non-tubeless tires can’t attach properly to hookless rims.
To be fair, it's not just he who is assuming that. In this article Jan Heine discusses some differences between tubeless and tires running with tubes in terms of their ability to hold onto a bead hook, the consequences of bead stretching, etc. While it doesn't directly relate to a non-hooked mount, it takes little imagination to understand that if a typical non-tubeless tire's bead is looser and potentially stretchier there may be issues with how well it will stay put in a non-hooked well. I'm still looking for the definitive article that directly discusses the difficulties of using non-tubeless tires in such a non-hooked tire well, but the concepts I have seen so far make ENVE's recommendation against using non-tubeless ready tires in their non-hooked tire well seem credible, and worth abiding by.
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Old 12-14-17, 05:44 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
Thanks for the link. It's interesting that folks have had success using non-tubeless tires and 4.5 ARs (see pic).
I've done things that I've gotten away with in the past, like taking non-tubeless ready MTB rims and running them tubeless after simply resealing the spoke holes with Stans yellow tape. The more I read about bead hooks, tire bead shapes, what differentiates tubeless ready from non-tubeless rims and tires, etc. the less inclined I am to keep doing things like this just because I got away with it in the past.

It's interesting that the guy in the pic you showed "got away" with running a non-tubeless GP4KIIs tire in these ENVE 4.5 AR rims. This was apparently his first 95km on brand new tires. He may keep getting away with it, or he may not. As he racks up more kilometerage on that bike the beads may stretch out a little and he may not get away with it anymore.

If a guy can afford $3k for a set of wheels, I think he should be able to afford to follow the manufacturers recommendations re: tire selection.

I do run a 32c tire usually and, again depending on the trail surface, sometimes a 40c tire. I run the 40c because many times running wider tires won't only slow you down...
Not even considering trail riding, even on the road I'm loving the 32mm tires, and will definitely keep pushing the size up with each new set to see where the performance/comfort levels off and changes direction.

Notwithstanding that article showing worse cross-wind performance with tires exceeding that 105% rule, I'd suspect that most people would still find their overall performance better on a wider tire like the 32mm even though it breaks the 105% rule. Everything's always a tradeoff, and the question comes down to the balance of marginal gains vs. marginal losses and what nets out of it all.
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Old 12-14-17, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
Gee thanks for your permission!.
You seem really angry for some reason.
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Old 12-15-17, 06:55 AM
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Okay I guess I started this Sh** storm asking about using Compass tires on the Enve 4.5's. After much research (I think wheelbuilder has the warning also about tubeless only too) I agree with Seattle and Seth and will be going with the 4.5 and initially the Pro ones on my Domane build. I stick to paved roads but have a few hard packed sand roads in Jersey I'd like to explore and the 28's might handle those.
As a father of a scientist and engineer and as a decade long contractor on large projects who pays a lot of $$$ for stamped engineering drawings, I've grown weary of electrician, carpenters that tell me we don't have to do it that way and this will work etc. I feel it's prudent to always follow manufacturers/engineers specs if not for obvious safety but just common sense and liability issues .
Many things "might" work. What happens when they don't going 40 MPH down a windy road? Who do you call than if your still around?
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Old 06-01-18, 01:33 PM
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Enve has a new G series of gravel wheels now.

For my purposes, and probably for most people in here, the 4.5 ARs are preferable.

https://enve.com/lp/g-series/
https://enve.com/products/g23/



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Old 06-09-18, 07:43 AM
  #165  
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Has anyone tried Hutchinson Sector 32mm on the 4.5 AR? How wide did it end up?

It's on Enve's recommended list along with the Sector 28mm. Looking for the widest slicks which are still "aero" with the rim. According to reviews of the tires, they run true to size--but of course 4.5 AR's internal width is wider.

If you've used Sector 28mm, I'd like to hear your feedback too.
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Old 06-11-18, 08:04 PM
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I have had the AR for about 8 months. Been on Schwalbe 28mm. I would also love to year more options one the tires.
It was frustrating going through the Chris King break-in mileage. Now I love these wheels. Don't even put on my Zipp anymore.
Don't mean to hi-jack the thread. But what do you use the polish them so at least they look newer than what I have put them through?
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Old 06-12-18, 09:40 AM
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I haven't tried any of the Hutchinson tires. I've heard their ride quality isn't on par with Pro Ones etc.
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Old 06-12-18, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by hogger453 View Post
Saw this a couple of days ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0s1Yxm6gPQ
Me too. Then I went to Competitive Cyclist and saw the $3500 price tag. OMG!!
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Old 06-15-18, 07:07 PM
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I got a set of these wheels second hand earlier this week.
They have replaced the Metron 40 wheel set on my Domane Sl6.
Running Schwalbe S-One 30mm tyres which measure at 33mm mounted.
Like the wheels so far.
Industry Nine hubs and the freewheel sounds very much like a Chis King.
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Old 06-15-18, 07:34 PM
  #170  
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Lol - did that TruthBomb joker really delete every single one of his posts?
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Old 08-30-18, 10:52 PM
  #171  
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Close call...clearance



My OPEN UP with Enve 4.5 AR with WTB Nano TCS 40s

I am not a very big rider at 5'8" and 135 lbs. I usually run 30-35 Psi. However, when I know that I will be on mostly road (and not gravel), I sometimes run 40 PSI. At this pressure, the Enve AR 4.5 and WTB Nano 40 tires barely clears the seat tube. I was a bit surprised as I've seen people run larger tires than 40s on their UP gravel bikes. I have to assume that they are running 650 b wheels and not 700 cc?? I am not sure if I want to go 650 b at this point. Have thought about the Enve G23 however. Tried them on a demo UPPER bike, and the set up was crazy light!!

Last edited by Cni2i; 08-30-18 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 08-31-18, 05:52 AM
  #172  
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^^^ That's a pretty sweet lookin' ride.
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Old 08-31-18, 12:05 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
^^^ That's a pretty sweet lookin' ride.
Thank you WhyFi!
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