That's an interesting report, and no-one could argue you haven't spent enough time testing your fit @17,000-20,000 miles!

What is your saddle set-back now with the zero setback post?

One reason I quite liked a more set-back position (c. 8cm setback - I'm 177cm tall with 87cm inseam) was exactly the "push forward and down" on the pedals that you describe. I found this keeps my position on the back of the saddle to prevent me from sliding forward onto the narrow part of the saddle.

How do you avoid this, or does it not bother you?

On my Fizik Antares saddle, there seems to be a very narrow range of positions where it is comfortable. If I slide forward more than about 1-2cm, then I would really suffer after 50 miles or so. Maybe it's saddle design and angle that's the cause of the problem? I moved my saddle forward 15mm (to a 6cm setback) and find I do have to shuffle back every so often , particularly if I take the pressure of my hands for a bit when riding on the flat.

setback is ~70mm. i run my saddle a couple of degrees nose up and never really feel like i'm sliding forward. i switched exclusively to brooks c17 saddles after running specialized romins for quite awhile and they fit me well...i like sitting on the narrow part of the saddle as opposed to the widest part, no matter what saddle i'm running.

....maybe.

also, just checked the "guidelines" regarding inseam and setback from several posts back and i'm right in line with saddle setback and my inseam.

If you believe in KOPS your set back should be adjusted to achieve KOPS, not over all reach. Reach can then be altered with a different stem and/or bar.

What was your setback prior to changing the stem & seat-post?

From the LeMond table, for my inseam (87cm), I should be using 4-6cm, which seems a bit short. I have no idea if these measurements still apply to modern bikes and cycling techniques.

honestly, no idea. i'd guess 20mm farther back (90mm or so). we're talking nose of the saddle measured straight down and then mm back from center of bb right?

Well said. Guess what. That is what everyone wants. Bringing in the word balance as generally misunderstood by the public is a "schtick". A gimmick. Just set yourself up according to KOPS and see how you like it. Move back. Move forward. You will quickly get where you want your saddle to be. Then work on your reach. It ain't rocket science.

Sorry for the newbie question, but what's KOPS?

Knee Over Pedal Spindle

The bolded part people tend to overlook when talking about "balance" vs setback.

Pull the seat back and lean forward more, you might have more weight on your hands. Straighten your arms instead, sure you'll have less weight there. Yet how much your core works to hold up the torso weight makes more difference in weight on the hands than the saddle position.

The saddle is also a pivot point, and in that respect reach and torso lean are the operative factors (rather than saddle setback dictating).

I tend to agree with [MENTION=183557]rpenmanparker[/MENTION]'s point: if you're talking about positioning for weight balance, you have to begin with the actual desired weight distribution. If there is no quantification for that, for whatever type of fit is desired, it means that physical weight balance is not what's really being adjusted. Which is fine if a fitter is just using a simplification to explain what he's doing - it doesn't really matter if the explanations are wrong as long as the result is acceptable. But it sure can lead DIY fitters down the wrong path when they take these incorrect physical descriptions literally.

My experience is that reach is independent of seat position. What I didn't say in my previous post is that I could keep myself from sliding forward by moving the seat forward, but I still ended up with perineal numbness when riding.

I eventually bought a Selle SMP TRK. With this saddle, I've ridden 46 miles without numbness (hey, I'm 73 and lucky I can ride 10). If I move my seat backward or forward, I keep moving my butt forward or backward, although that's partly - maybe largely - a function of the saddle design. If I tilt the saddle farther down, I feel as if I'm going to fall off; if I tilt it farther up, I get numb within 10 miles. If I move the saddle up or down, my knees hurt. Since any change in my saddle position increases my discomfort, I'm not about to change it.

But my hands hurt. When I set my bike up in the late '80s, the reco was for the 'bars to obscure the hub when on the drops. That is still what I (don't) see. Competitive Cyclist's tool says 56 cm TT, and that's what I've got.

I think the first sentence may have it backwards. I know the 2nd is problematic - at least for me, straight arms put more stress on hands, arms, and shoulders and more weight on hands.

I'm hoping that's true, and my experience is that, as long as I'm not too tired, the stronger my core is, the more comfortable I am on the bike and the less weight is on my hands.

I do find that pedaling all out seems to take all weight off my hands. I can't pedal all out for long, but I think pedaling effort does effect comfort.

Sure, i never advocated for using it as the primary fitting objective, but it is something that can easily be adjusted for by pivoting the fixed body around the bottom bracket while keeping things like torso angle, reach, and leg extension fixed if the fitter discovers that there is too much pressure on the hands or not enough. I just don't believe in KOPS and a fixed saddle setback distance for a given set of body measurements, it is all a balancing act, and that position is adjustable for a desired performance characteristic.

I'm just talking the static physical weight distributions: torso center of mass distance from the support at two ends. Whatever else is going on there, the weight distribution there is correct. And that's exactly why I don't like to reference weight balance at all regarding pressure on the hands.


Right.

so...i did a 53 mile ride today and REALLY paid attention to my setback/stem length/leg relationship to KOPS and my thoughts are this:
the zero setback post seems to be perfect for my riding. it puts me in a neutral position when i'm sitting and spinning. when i'm starting to grind, i found that i push myself back in the saddle some...kind of against the tail of the cambium saddle i use. when i get into the "time trial" position, i'm on the nose of the saddle, my hips are rocked backward, my elbows are bent and i'm in the drops or with my hands resting on the outward most part of the hoods. i feel like if i had any more setback, i wouldn't be able to achieve these 3 positions as comfortably and naturally as i'm able to now.
until this thread popped up, i never really gave my fit any thought. after the BG fit, the noticeable difference in performance and efficiency is all i needed to become a believer. i definitely don't wanna start over thinking it, but i must admit this thread has given me some food for thought.

Yes, that's how it's typically measured, but of course it is dependent on saddle design, which messes it up as an accurate measurement unless you are comparing identical saddles.

I did one on-line bike fit (don't remember which) and it suggests 11-12cm setback - just seemed crazy (and impossible to achieve on my bike), so I ignored it.

I would say 6-8cm is probably normal for my inseam (c. 87cm / 34"), even though the LeMond table I saw suggested 4-6cm. UCI limit is 5cm I understand, shorter riders would have a problem with LeMond's measurements.

Was overtaken by, & caught a ride with, a fast group yesterday. These guy & gals hammer.

Anyway, I noticed two guys that had mid-foot cleats. rpenmanparker may claim BS, but it is a real thing.

One was pretty tall w/ big feet, & it looked like he would have to watch out for toe overlap with the ground!

Wasn't able to pick up all the details (@ 25 mph) but they had straight seatposts and pretty sure not KOPS.

I don't call any fitting system BS if it is based on putting the saddle where you need it to be to pedal your best and then adjusting the reach.

At the risk of nit-picking,

"I read it. It is total BS. How do you unweight the torso by moving the saddle? The whole thing is absurd."


AFAIK, Hogg is one of the main investigators of mid-food cleat positioning, which does not use KOPS.