TimothyH

How about a BF Road Cycling club/group?

Who wants to start one? Or is there one already?

DrIsotope

I once drafted an out-of-service bus as it left the repair depot and took the KOM on a shortish segment. I didn't consider it unfair at the time, and still don't now... because I had to average 406W even with the help of the bus. I lost it about 6 months later to a guy who uses the garbage Strava phone app. In the segment analysis, our little dots are side by side the entire length, then all of a sudden his just blips forward and he takes the segment by exactly one second. Nothing like banking on the inaccuracy of phone GPS positioning.

This is just personal bias, but I consider anyone strong/quick enough to take KOMs that uses the phone app and has no sensors of any kind, to be a cheater in their own right. The guy who has sniped a good dozen of my KOMs rides 5,000+ miles a year, does crits... and uses the phone app. I've seen the phone app report a higher average speed than maximum speed on segment, and have the guy who knocked me down the leaderboard do it at a lower average speed than I did. But I'm the chump over here with speed, cadence, HR, and power, so it's kinda my own fault.

gregf83 

He's suggesting it's not technically cheating because there are no rules to be broken other than those in an individual's head and every individual has a different set of 'rules' in their head.

For example does it really make sense to hold a competition for the faster rider on a segment when the conditions each rider encounters are different? Rather than 'King of the Mountain' it's more like fastest rider with a 20kph tailwind or fastest rider to get dragged along by a willing group of riders.

If you want to measure yourself, race.

Doge

I started a thread on cheating about two years ago and the mods shut it down early on.
Because there IS cheating, I want to save the word for cheaters.

It depends. It is not OK, the ride should be taken down, but lacks covert, and maybe agreement breaking component/s that I'd want there to call it a word with moral/ethical meaning like cheating.

Was an agreement broken on purpose? Using an eBike in a way that is obvious (say speed is 30% higher) is not covert. It is easily seen and flagged. If breaking an agreement on purpose to get a better time, so it is hidden it is cheating.

Not if it was obvious.
He road without a brake putting him in another "class" but was open about it, it didn't really matter and therefore was not cheating. Had he modified his bike to a point it was unlike anything anyone else had used, what Strava says not to use - and hid it, then it would be .

But he did get a KOM on his Palomar segment that happened by flagging the real KOM and then uploading his. Strava gave a permanent KOM for that ride on his page. If he did that purposely (and he says he didn't) that would be so obvious it would get fixed. And Strava seems to have fixed it. So even [digital] doping, when done in front of the world I would not label cheating. Had that been good for some 100 place and some star he didn't earn, and he kept it - that would be cheating.

OBoile

He rode the segment twice (with at least the 2nd being an apparently deliberate attempt to retake the KOM) without reporting the fact that he was on an e-bike. That certainly sounds like an attempt to be covert.

As for an "agreement", it's the first point in the strava guidelines.

Cheating is still cheating even if you suck at it.

If you want to use a different word, fine. My original point still stands: that behavior is pathetic.

logical

So its okay to cheat as long as you arent hiding it? Im not getting where you are going here? Are you saying as long as they dont hide it and you can find it and flag it... its not cheating? But if you are deliberately hiding it in a manner thats hard to tell to flag its cheating? Using an e-bike to take the KOM either is or isnt cheating you cant go back and forth on it.

You seem to be salty about people taking KOMs no matter how they do it. Phil Gaimon has been on a hunt for KOMs here in SoCal so Ill never take any meaningful KOMs(and even if it wasnt him I would never get any in SoCal anyway) but every time I see his name at the top I just mentally discount it because of the way he sets up his bike and the way he goes at KOMs.

Strava is no different than any other leaderboard where people will do anything to get to the top even though its meaningless. You dont get any awards from getting a KOM. I also dont agree with the fact that people know KOM segment winners more than actual winners.

GuitarBob

I don't know of one, except the one for those who participate in the Addiction thread.

Doge

OK? No.

Not trying to turn this into an ethics thread, but there is a lot in Strava that is left to folks to work out. There is no contract like in USAC every race saying you will obey the rules with a signature at the bottom.

There are people that secretly break a contract on purpose to gain an advantage. Those are cheaters.

Strava has guidelines, many variations of grey area - like taking parts off the bike, drafting etc. and no "easy" was to tell if something was done on purpose to gain an advantage or not. When I'm not sure about those things, I'm not going to accuse someone who's identity is likely known, of cheating.

Nachoman

https://www.strava.com/clubs
then search Bike-Forums

f4rrest

The problem with a local race is that the sample size is too small to be meaningful with regard to answering "how fast am I compared to most other cyclists in the area?"

Doge

Races measure ability/luck in winning races vs measuring fitness or performance. A mechanical, bad ref call and then the results are not reflective of ability at all. Then there is the whole junior gearing thing. Racing works only if you want to measure your ability to win races. Strava KOMs are hill TTs with a few more variables. I don't take them super serious, nor do I take race results so.
Variability in sports makes them more exciting. Part of it is picking the right day and right conditions.

The KOM holder below is kinda a special guy. He pretty much can't win a race where there is air to breath. But it is fun to watch him. You don't find guys like Leroy racing.
https://www.strava.com/segments/1751040

SethAZ 

I'm happy he beat Phil Gaimon by 2 seconds. I'm sure Phil was not amused.

gregf83 

Real KOMs (i.e. actual mountains or reasonably long and steep hills) are a decent measure but I hear an awful lot of whinging about non hill segments.

I was in Spain a couple of years back and they had a pre-cursor to Strava on one hill (Coll de Rates near Parcent). At the bottom of the hill you took a paper card and got it time stamped in a machine. You then ascended the hill and time stamped the card in another machine at the top of the hill and deposited it in a box. Once a week a volunteer would collect all the cards and post them on a website. (Stoppomat Startseite)

Doge

That is really cool. Unless closed to cars, seems about as exposed to "cheating" as Strava.

SethAZ 

Since a human being was involved in the posting of the results, I'm betting that a little judgment was probably exercised, and no, that guy didn't average 35mph up that hill on a bike.

kbarch

I get what @Doge is saying about cheating - you can't be cheating if you aren't playing the game to begin with. Because Strava has no authority to punish anyone for malice, cheaters and the folks who are just sloppy end up in the same boat. The complication arises because the Strava game is defined by the fact that the riding just happens to be recorded in a certain database, and aside from that, there are no real parameters, and, evidently, there is no consensus on the significance of any particular recording. Not everyone sees it from the community angle - many see it as a tool for their private use. That may be selfish and "spoiling it for everyone else," but it's not cheating, strictly speaking. I think the word we want for most e-bike riders on Strava is "spoiler," not "cheater."

SethAZ 

I agree for the most part, but an e-bike rider who goes out specifically to snipe KOMs knows that what they're doing is wrong. That intent makes what they do cheating. The lazy MTBer who forgets to stop his recording before driving home at 50mph and taking every KOM along the route is just spoiling it, as you say.

Doge

Assault is wrong, but it is not cheating.

Unless there is an agreement to keep the rules (there may be), and also a secretive intent they are not cheating (by my definition).

Cheaters covertly (secret intent) break agreements they have made with the intent of gaining an advantage.

So we have intentional spoilers - I'll leave the new word needed for others @kbarch.

WhyFi

This really is of the 41iest conversations evar. That's saying something. Anywho -

Quote:

1. Non-Traditional Bikes

The Segment Leaderboards for cycling are a place for conventional bicycles only so that the top Segment rankings are not taken by unattainable, motor-assisted times or from fully-faired vehicles (velomobiles).

Uploading data from a car, motorcycle, e-bike, velomobile, motor-assisted bike, or any bicycle that includes any non-human propulsion or pedal-assisted force, and categorizing the activity as a "Ride" displaces data uploaded from a human-powered bike, conflicting with the fairness and integrity of the Segment Leaderboards.

If there is a Strava sport type for your activity such as "e-bike" or "virtual trainer", you must use this designation. If not, you must use one of the other options listed below.

Bah Humbug

You mean #41iest.

#41ier #bf #bikeforums #bicycles #strava #nofilter #yolo

Doge

Is a bike without a front brake and sawed off bars a Non-Traditional Bike? Should the ride be flagged?

"1. Non-Traditional Bikes - The Segment Leaderboards for cycling are a place for conventional bicycles only"


See 3:53


3:00 - about how he got the KOM when he never had the KOM.

WhyFi

Does the above address your 'cheating' criteria w/r/t ebikes or not? Sure looks like it does to me, but I'm a pretty reasonable person.

Doge

It was not cheating (by my definition) because:

1 *Maybe* it was not breaking an agreement (but a guideline) - I'm OK saying for Strava a guideline counts. I can't remember what folks who sign up/ load say OK to. If they didn't see it - then, it certainly didn't break an agreement.

2 It was not secretive.

If everyone agrees, or more importantly Strava staff, that the bike was non-traditional then it should be taken down.

WhyFi

Doge

I don't know where to look this up, as I did at least search for it. Can you please give me a link.
I looked here on age : https://www.ironman.com/~/media/be213...17%20final.pdf

"Section 1.07 COMPETITION AGE
All age-group athletes must participate and compete in the age-group division corresponding to
the athlete’s age as of December 31 of the year of the Event."

It seems they do not compete with pros, which is similar to bicycle racing in Europe.

If a 17 year old were a pro, would they be allowed the same equipment?