Have you ever rolled a (road) tubular?
11-03-17 | 07:28 PM
#51
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
and since we're questioning one's experience relevant to the subject, do you own a set of tubulars? have you glued them yourself?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
11-03-17 | 07:31 PM
#52
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
if you bothered to have any idea who you're dissing, you'd know from posts on here the descent out of my second home in NC is 20%, and I just rode the full length of the Blue Ridge Parkway Skyline Drive, which IIRC is over 50,000 feet of descents.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
11-03-17 | 07:32 PM
#53
Erik the Inveigler
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From: The California Alps
I have in the past. I used to race (CAT 3) on sew-ups, which--yes--I glued myself. Currently I ride on nothing but clinchers. One thing that I never resolved for myself were these questions relating to safety and that is why I am asking questions. That's when I am accused of overthinking things by condescending "Masters" Serious Cyclists.
11-03-17 | 07:36 PM
#54
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
I have in the past. I used to race (CAT 3) on sew-ups, which--yes--I glued myself. Currently I ride on nothing but clinchers. One thing that I never resolved for myself were these questions relating to safety and that is why I am asking questions. That's when I am accused of overthinking things by condescending "Masters" Serious Cyclists.
There is a slight advantage in the event of a blow out.
Continued handwringing about melting glue is over thinking it.
If you got to CAT 3, youu should have enough experience with, exposure to tubulars to know this.
And even if you still have an actual question here ad hominem attacks are not the way to get it answered.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Last edited by merlinextraligh; 11-03-17 at 07:40 PM.
11-03-17 | 07:44 PM
#55
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 854
Likes: 34
From: SF Bay Area
I think if there's an argument for either tubs or clinchers for safety reasons it would be over carbon wheels. Carbon tubulars I would consider safer than carbon clinchers in some situations. I have never rolled a tub or exploded a clincher for that matter.
Ride what you want and report back from your hospital bed if you ever roll or blow one or the other
Ride what you want and report back from your hospital bed if you ever roll or blow one or the other
11-03-17 | 07:44 PM
#57
Erik the Inveigler
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From: The California Alps
and the answer is, as has been stated ad naseum, there is no safety disadvantage to tubulars.
There is a slight advantage in the event of a blow out.
Continued handwringing about melting glue is over thinking it.
If you got to CAT 3, youu should have enough experience with, exposure to tubulars to know this.
And even if you still have an actual question here ad hominem attacks are not the way to get it answered.
There is a slight advantage in the event of a blow out.
Continued handwringing about melting glue is over thinking it.
If you got to CAT 3, youu should have enough experience with, exposure to tubulars to know this.
And even if you still have an actual question here ad hominem attacks are not the way to get it answered.
Who in the f*** do you think you are? It seems to me that you are just trying to stifle what had been a good discussion only because you seem to have some weird need to indulge in a personal display of narcissism. Again, I don't care who you are. If I feel a need to ask questions I will do so. That's what fora like this are all about, after all.
11-03-17 | 07:46 PM
#58
Erik the Inveigler
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From: The California Alps
Pisgah Monster Cross. a couple of weeks ago. 9000 feet descending, most on dirt/gravel.
if you bothered to have any idea who you're dissing, you'd know from posts on here the descent out of my second home in NC is 20%, and I just rode the full length of the Blue Ridge Parkway Skyline Drive, which IIRC is over 50,000 feet of descents.
if you bothered to have any idea who you're dissing, you'd know from posts on here the descent out of my second home in NC is 20%, and I just rode the full length of the Blue Ridge Parkway Skyline Drive, which IIRC is over 50,000 feet of descents.
There you go again--rubbing your ass on the carpet.
11-03-17 | 07:51 PM
#59
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
ok data ponts.
Have I ever rolled a tubular? No.
Have I crashed as a result of rolling a flatted clincher? Yes?
Have I flatted a tubular and finished the race on the flat? Yes? (although Abraham Olano was much more impressive.)
There just isn't an issue here. Tubulars have an advantage in the event of a flat. Tubulars on CF rims may have a bit of adavantge with heat issues, although Carbon clinchers are getting much better.
Trying to argue that tubulars are somehow a safety issue is just silly.
Have I ever rolled a tubular? No.
Have I crashed as a result of rolling a flatted clincher? Yes?
Have I flatted a tubular and finished the race on the flat? Yes? (although Abraham Olano was much more impressive.)
There just isn't an issue here. Tubulars have an advantage in the event of a flat. Tubulars on CF rims may have a bit of adavantge with heat issues, although Carbon clinchers are getting much better.
Trying to argue that tubulars are somehow a safety issue is just silly.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
11-03-17 | 07:53 PM
#60
Erik the Inveigler
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From: The California Alps
ok data ponts.
Have I ever rolled a tubular? No.
Have I crashed as a result of rolling a flatted clincher? Yes?
Have I flatted a tubular and finished the race on the flat? Yes? (although Abraham Olano was much more impressive.)
There just isn't an issue here. Tubulars have an advantage in the event of a flat. Tubulars on CF rims may have a bit of adavantge with heat issues, although Carbon clinchers are getting much better.
Trying to argue that tubulars are somehow a safety issue is just silly.
Have I ever rolled a tubular? No.
Have I crashed as a result of rolling a flatted clincher? Yes?
Have I flatted a tubular and finished the race on the flat? Yes? (although Abraham Olano was much more impressive.)
There just isn't an issue here. Tubulars have an advantage in the event of a flat. Tubulars on CF rims may have a bit of adavantge with heat issues, although Carbon clinchers are getting much better.
Trying to argue that tubulars are somehow a safety issue is just silly.
11-03-17 | 07:54 PM
#61
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
again, just a response to rebut your ill founded assumptions.
First you assume that I've never ridden in the mountains, wrong.
Second, you assume I haven't done it lately, wrong.
I'm glad to stick to purely the substance of the debate, but when you attack my credibility to bolster your argument, i'll tell you why your wrong.
First you assume that I've never ridden in the mountains, wrong.
Second, you assume I haven't done it lately, wrong.
I'm glad to stick to purely the substance of the debate, but when you attack my credibility to bolster your argument, i'll tell you why your wrong.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
11-03-17 | 07:55 PM
#62
Erik the Inveigler
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From: The California Alps
Well, let the record show that I was respectful until Mr. Serious Cyclist came in and started to spray around like a feral cat.
If I get bounced out of here, so be it. And I really don't give a damn.
If I get bounced out of here, so be it. And I really don't give a damn.
11-03-17 | 07:56 PM
#63
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
then what are you arguing.
Where I came in, I said there wasn't a safety issue; you preceded to assert I had no basis to express that opinion coming from Fl.
If you don't disagree, then why the attack?
Where I came in, I said there wasn't a safety issue; you preceded to assert I had no basis to express that opinion coming from Fl.
If you don't disagree, then why the attack?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Last edited by merlinextraligh; 11-03-17 at 08:33 PM.
11-03-17 | 08:47 PM
#68
Farmer tan
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,985
Likes: 30
From: Burbank, CA
Bikes: Allez, SuperSix Evo
11-04-17 | 08:09 AM
#71
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 566
Likes: 109
Nope. Not in 40 years. Even in the days when I just glued the rim, which were 30 of those years. Gluing the tire means zero chance of rolling, but they are a PITA to remove. I work a tire iron with a relatively sharp end under and free up enough tire to peel the rest off. I would tend to discount the idea of a bare clincher front rim being so dangerous had I not seen it myself. I'm not sure what percentage of clincher flats are of the spectacular blowout variety that lead to front wheel slides. I have never had such a blowout with tubulars, usually a slow flat.
11-04-17 | 08:44 AM
#72
Erik the Inveigler
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From: The California Alps
Just some more comments ...
How I glue - now.
Goal is for a tight, unbreakable-by-riding bond at the edges for lowest Crr and no rolling on the rim (not rolling off, rolling on). There is some debate if the tire should be allowed to roll more on corners so it offers better grip. That is at the expense of Crr and possibly rolling off (although little concern) and gluing down the middle, getting glue in spoke holes. Tape would be the best choice if you want the roll, and or the re-bond on break, or the easy spare options. Those are not important to me and I don't use tape as posted above. Glue looses a lot of its weight when it is dry, while tape mostly doesn't. That is maybe some 25g. Tape is also more center based adhesive than the edges. I like the edges bonded (repeating myself).
I glue 90% on carbon now. A new rim will get roughed with 400 grit sand paper. Not 100% needed, I just do it. Then I clean with lacquer thinner. A Vittoria MasticOne glue tube works best, but I often use a can cause it is cheaper and I'm always running out of tubes, or one gets a hole and makes a mess. Everything always makes a mess anyway. I use my bare finger too, not gloved and clean up later, or have glue on my hands for a day or so. Naphtha can also be a solvent, but it does not dry/messes with the glue solvents so I try not to have it near my work. It is also pretty harsh on the environment (I'm told) and not even sold in my county. Many labels and sticker come off with these solvents. Work is best done in the garage with a door open.
I make a small hole in the glue tube and do a thin bead along one side of the rim and smooth with my figure. I might stick my finger in the can and make a thin layer instead of a glue tube. The can is more of a mess. I do the other side the same and the other rim, and clean up edges with a rag and solvent. I don't really let it dry but both get about 15 min in the air as part of the process.
Typically new tires go on rims for a few days before mounting. I will inflate them 50psi or so, check fit and sometimes might cut tape from around valve. Many times the hand applied based tape is on the valve. I may also put some electrical tape/or plummer's tape on valve extension if I want to avoid the valve hitting rim noise. Point is this is where you work out fit etc. I clean the tire base tape real well with lacquer thinner and generally do this before I start gluing. I inflate the tire until it twists/warps just a bit. That is ~15PSI. Do this too much and they tire will roll inside out, get smaller diameter and fatter width and mess with the tread bonds. It is not a good thing to do. I just want light PSI so the tire hold shape and twists sideways a little bit.
Tape is dry before it gets any glue and I would not use another solvent. I heavily glue each side of the tape - about 5-8 mm width. I twist the tire so the each side rolls out, glue that side, then the other. Not I normally do not spend much time at all with the center. Some rims the center is 1-2mm lower. There is this thing called a "Belgium glue job" where the center is filled with glue/or tape. Might be for the roll idea. I don't bother. With the tire tape edges quite saturated with glue I mount. I then center, do the roll on the flow thing on both sides, and if it is a race tire - I tie the tire onto the rim with nylon rope. This just drives the tire into the rim and seems to work better. I often skip this for a training tire. I inflate to around 100 PSI and let sit over night. I'll take the ropes off and clean glue flash the next day. The result is something as true as a clincher, with no, to minimal hops that are very tight and responsive. The bond is solid and tight. There is not much glue there at all and no play. It is not going to roll off, but can be removed with some hope of reusing the tire.
Attachment 587208
How I glue - now.
Goal is for a tight, unbreakable-by-riding bond at the edges for lowest Crr and no rolling on the rim (not rolling off, rolling on). There is some debate if the tire should be allowed to roll more on corners so it offers better grip. That is at the expense of Crr and possibly rolling off (although little concern) and gluing down the middle, getting glue in spoke holes. Tape would be the best choice if you want the roll, and or the re-bond on break, or the easy spare options. Those are not important to me and I don't use tape as posted above. Glue looses a lot of its weight when it is dry, while tape mostly doesn't. That is maybe some 25g. Tape is also more center based adhesive than the edges. I like the edges bonded (repeating myself).
I glue 90% on carbon now. A new rim will get roughed with 400 grit sand paper. Not 100% needed, I just do it. Then I clean with lacquer thinner. A Vittoria MasticOne glue tube works best, but I often use a can cause it is cheaper and I'm always running out of tubes, or one gets a hole and makes a mess. Everything always makes a mess anyway. I use my bare finger too, not gloved and clean up later, or have glue on my hands for a day or so. Naphtha can also be a solvent, but it does not dry/messes with the glue solvents so I try not to have it near my work. It is also pretty harsh on the environment (I'm told) and not even sold in my county. Many labels and sticker come off with these solvents. Work is best done in the garage with a door open.
I make a small hole in the glue tube and do a thin bead along one side of the rim and smooth with my figure. I might stick my finger in the can and make a thin layer instead of a glue tube. The can is more of a mess. I do the other side the same and the other rim, and clean up edges with a rag and solvent. I don't really let it dry but both get about 15 min in the air as part of the process.
Typically new tires go on rims for a few days before mounting. I will inflate them 50psi or so, check fit and sometimes might cut tape from around valve. Many times the hand applied based tape is on the valve. I may also put some electrical tape/or plummer's tape on valve extension if I want to avoid the valve hitting rim noise. Point is this is where you work out fit etc. I clean the tire base tape real well with lacquer thinner and generally do this before I start gluing. I inflate the tire until it twists/warps just a bit. That is ~15PSI. Do this too much and they tire will roll inside out, get smaller diameter and fatter width and mess with the tread bonds. It is not a good thing to do. I just want light PSI so the tire hold shape and twists sideways a little bit.
Tape is dry before it gets any glue and I would not use another solvent. I heavily glue each side of the tape - about 5-8 mm width. I twist the tire so the each side rolls out, glue that side, then the other. Not I normally do not spend much time at all with the center. Some rims the center is 1-2mm lower. There is this thing called a "Belgium glue job" where the center is filled with glue/or tape. Might be for the roll idea. I don't bother. With the tire tape edges quite saturated with glue I mount. I then center, do the roll on the flow thing on both sides, and if it is a race tire - I tie the tire onto the rim with nylon rope. This just drives the tire into the rim and seems to work better. I often skip this for a training tire. I inflate to around 100 PSI and let sit over night. I'll take the ropes off and clean glue flash the next day. The result is something as true as a clincher, with no, to minimal hops that are very tight and responsive. The bond is solid and tight. There is not much glue there at all and no play. It is not going to roll off, but can be removed with some hope of reusing the tire.
Attachment 587208
Edit: Oh, and before the unfortunate dust-up, I wanted to thank you, for having posted this in-depth set of instructions.
Last edited by Scarbo; 11-04-17 at 08:47 AM.
11-04-17 | 08:59 AM
#73
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
You need more glue if:
-You believe/want the tire to re-bond on a break from hitting a hole etc. I might also choose old fasioned tacky glue or tape.
-You do not make solid contact to start with.
-You have no method or parts (meaning tire won't seat) to ensure a 100% edge contact).
The glue is meant to be an adhesive. 3mm of glue is not more adhesive than .5mm of glue IF it is in contact with the two surfaces.
Two layers is thicker and assists contacting more areas of the tape. Because many/most don't go through the efforts to press the tire onto the rim for 100% edge contact, more glue increases the contact chances.
One layer is fine if there is full contact and no expectation of the bond being broken and needed to re-seal. See the ropes in post above? I go with the make 100% contact on the edges, and plan not to break the bond.
For the rough road set with reduced PSI - I use more glue as I anticipate the bond being broken and re-sealing.
I know 2 layers holds better for the average quick glue job. But I think it holds too much better and I loose base tape. If I were gluing for a team and had any liability concerns, I'd glue more layers just to not get credit if the tire comes off even in a crash. Its like if someone has a car accident and you find they had a beer, the beer gets blamed.
Edit Add:
The general case when bonding (adhesive and even brazing) is to focus on the strength of the bond, not the strength of the material. The traditional tubular glue job has a squishy layer of glue. Some glues used for track like shellac and Soyo are hard glues and dry hard and do not re-bond if broken. Crr tests showed this was better. Repeating what I said above... Rims being wider, better formed to fit the tire, tires wider, and glue better (Mastic One) and more flex than the hard glue, less than the older glue I found junior could use wheels heavily and have them sealed afterward. He'd destroyed front and back and the tires are fine. So I saw no need to go back to the heavy glue tradition.
Last edited by Doge; 11-04-17 at 09:11 AM.
11-04-17 | 09:28 AM
#75
Erik the Inveigler
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From: The California Alps
Edit Add:
The general case when bonding (adhesive and even brazing) is to focus on the strength of the bond, not the strength of the material. The traditional tubular glue job has a squishy layer of glue. Some glues used for track like shellac and Soyo are hard glues and dry hard and do not re-bond if broken. Crr tests showed this was better. Repeating what I said above... Rims being wider, better formed to fit the tire, tires wider, and glue better (Mastic One) and more flex than the hard glue, less than the older glue I found junior could use wheels heavily and have them sealed afterward. He'd destroyed front and back and the tires are fine. So I saw no need to go back to the heavy glue tradition.
Rims being wider . . . I'm just curious, here. Let's say I bought this old vintage bike that came with old-style Ambrosia alloy rims. Would you recommend more layers of glue or would you still adhere to your one-layer process. I ask because now and then I come across old bikes on Craigslist that do feature tubular rims.