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Electronic shifting - interesting observation

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Electronic shifting - interesting observation

Old 07-23-18, 08:51 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
near the end of the ride. There were 8 of us left
Out of how many starters?
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Old 07-23-18, 10:56 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
I as reading a thread recently - maybe here or on another site - where the OP was concerned about how he was going to install firmware updates onto his Di2, and the conversation progressed to wireless dongles, operating system compatibility, dragging the bike inside to be beside a computer etc etc. I ride my bike to get away from this crap. The beauty of the bike is, IMO, the mechanical simplicity. I assembled it, I maintain it and I diagnose it if something goes wrong. When the shifting is buttery smooth, that's me, not some software engineer at Shimano or SRAM. I also drive stick shift cars and wear a mechanical watch - that's just how I like it. Are these the most efficient? Probably not, but there's more to life than efficiency
I update my Di2 from my phone.
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Old 07-23-18, 11:34 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post

I update my Di2 from my phone.
Same here, and charging is so infrequent that it's hardly a problem.

Some people have really weak excuses for not wanting/using Di2..
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Old 07-23-18, 11:48 AM
  #54  
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My newest bike has Di2. I swapped out my mechanical Revelator for a Prestige model just a few days before my crash.. I wanted something different in my 'stable'. I haven't ridden the new bike yet.. Hopefully soon.. I'm still out of commission from the crash.. but I did ride a di2 loaner bike a while back and the shifting was so crisp and precise, I fell in love. So I know why adoption is moving so quickly
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Old 07-23-18, 12:26 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Some people have really weak excuses for not wanting/using Di2..
On the flip side, marginal complaints might make sense if you see the benefits of e-shifting as being marginal for your riding as well, especially given the inescapable non-marginal matter of cost.

There are some notable benefits to electronic shifting, but I actually think the most common arguments in favor of it are fairly weak, and generally blown way out of proportion. I can rapidly double-shift to bail myself smoothly between chainrings on modern mechanical STI just fine should a steep hill suddenly appear, and I have no issue shifting every few seconds.

IMO biggest benefit to electronic is that you can set things up so that shifting doesn't disrupt posture. The benefits are most dramatic on TT/Tri bikes; putting a second set of shifters on the base bars does for aerobars what STI did for drop bars decades ago. It's still quite nice on road bikes, although mechanical brifters already catch most of the low-hanging fruit compared with older systems (i.e. downtube or bar-end shifters).
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Old 07-23-18, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
On the flip side, marginal complaints might make sense if you see the benefits of e-shifting as being marginal for your riding as well, especially given the inescapable non-marginal matter of cost.

There are some notable benefits to electronic shifting, but I actually think the most common arguments in favor of it are fairly weak, and generally blown way out of proportion. I can rapidly double-shift to bail myself smoothly between chainrings on modern mechanical STI just fine should a steep hill suddenly appear, and I have no issue shifting every few seconds.

IMO biggest benefit to electronic is that you can set things up so that shifting doesn't disrupt posture. The benefits are most dramatic on TT/Tri bikes; putting a second set of shifters on the base bars does for aerobars what STI did for drop bars decades ago. It's still quite nice on road bikes, although mechanical brifters already catch most of the low-hanging fruit compared with older systems (i.e. downtube or bar-end shifters).
I'd certainly agree for the most part. Even as an ardent DI2 user, and I won't ever own another bike without it. It truly is a luxury, yes the shifting is a bit smoother especially the front but I never had challenges with the speed or efficiency of my mechanical shifts either. When I first got into DI2 it was purely for the ability to have remote shifters, specifically the climbing shifter, or if ever wanting tt bars, etc. Now with my new one piece handlebars I didn't want to mess up the look so I'm back to shifting from the normal area but still adore my DI2!
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Old 07-23-18, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by shafter View Post
Isn't there a power loss due to differences in viscosity between ATF and manual transmission fluid?
Some of the newer manual transmissions use ATF fluid. The torque converter (and the spread in gear ratios) in the autos is where the inefficiency comes from. A lock-up converter negates some of that when cruising. The newer multi gear (more than 2-3) reduces inefficiency also.
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Old 07-23-18, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post

Some people have really weak excuses for not wanting/using Di2..
True, but that goes for a lot of bike stuff. How many Need carbon rims or Need boutique brand hubs or Need ceramic BB bearings? ;-) Id take electric front shifting (and hydro discs) over any of those any day.
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Old 07-23-18, 01:25 PM
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Electronic shifting is the future, but it's in its infancy. I used to be an early adopter, but no more. After e-shifting goes through a few generations, I'll be on board. At a minimum, it needs to trickle down to Tiagra/Rival level. Think of how bulbous and ugly are the older Shimano brifters with the exposed cables. All new technologies need time to mature.
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Old 07-23-18, 01:34 PM
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I just went over to DI2 8070 with my new bike and I will never go back to mechanical shifting. I absolutely love it.
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Old 07-23-18, 01:40 PM
  #61  
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I have owned eTap for a year now. The only other local I have seen with it is my LBS owner who built himself a Moots with eTap, but he sold it shortly after because of geometry issues. There are a few DI2 bikes floating around, but probably over 90% mechanical here probably because there is not a huge road bike market here. I love eTap! I recently test rode a new Tarmac with mechanical Dura Ace. Shifting felt like pulling the arm on a slot machine compared to eTap. I have ridden Ultegra DI2 as well. Electronic just feels so much faster shifting to me.
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Old 07-23-18, 02:01 PM
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I have mechanical Ultegra and can't for the life of me think of a single reason to go to electronic shifting other than it's neat.

My bike shifts everytime, I'd lose as much or more riding time due to dead batteries as I would broken cables, and spend as much or more time charging batteries as I would changing cables.

I've never once shifted and thought, man that was slow...
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Old 07-23-18, 02:31 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Some people have really weak excuses for not wanting/using Di2..
I'm reading this thread and it is clear that there are lots of misconceptions about electronic shifting.

It is a shame because the newest gen stuff is pretty slick and virtually maintenance free.


-Tim-
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Old 07-23-18, 02:49 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
I as reading a thread recently - maybe here or on another site - where the OP was concerned about how he was going to install firmware updates onto his Di2, and the conversation progressed to wireless dongles, operating system compatibility, dragging the bike inside to be beside a computer etc etc. I ride my bike to get away from this crap. The beauty of the bike is, IMO, the mechanical simplicity. I assembled it, I maintain it and I diagnose it if something goes wrong. When the shifting is buttery smooth, that's me, not some software engineer at Shimano or SRAM. I also drive stick shift cars and wear a mechanical watch - that's just how I like it. Are these the most efficient? Probably not, but there's more to life than efficiency
I, on the other hand, am much more comfortable setting up and trouble-shooting an electronic system than a mechanical one. And when your mechanical shifting is buttery smooth, that's just as much the engineers at Shimano or SRAM; they designed the mechanisms and systems and spent untold hours ensuring that they could be set up to shift smoothly.

As for the "more to life than...", it's what we call a thought-terminating cliche. Now, unlike most of those it does have some merit: it is possible for something to have subjective value greater than its objective value. To bring cars back into it, if you want the best speed-for-dollar, you're buying a Corvette. For the same money, lots of people buy slower Porsches. Why? Are they stupid? Well, some may be, but for others it's the car they were dreaming of since they were teenagers and can finally afford. Others may prefer the handling characteristics, the looks, the dealership, their local club, or have some other reason to prefer the slower car. However, when "more to life than..." appears at the end of a paragraph explaining why you don't want something, it's probably going to fall into the TTC category.

Now for me, the reason I don't have Di2 is I'm just too much of a cheapass to pay the premium it's currently going for. Merlin getting the mini-group down to $900 begins to get interesting, but when the time comes to upgrade my S1 to 11-speed, the $260 6800 is probably going to win, at less than a third of the price. And eTap is still WTFBBQ.
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Old 07-23-18, 02:53 PM
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Does Di2 really have issues on rough roads? I read about a lot of teams in the TDF switching to mechanical for the Paris-Roubaix stage last Sunday, and the ones who didn't ran a 44 or 46 small ring so they could still race if their bike quit shifting on the cobbles.
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Old 07-23-18, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Capo72 View Post
I recently test rode a new Tarmac with mechanical Dura Ace. Shifting felt like pulling the arm on a slot machine compared to eTap.
Hahaha. I felt the same way when I jumped on a mechanical bike after riding Di2 for a year and a half. The price premium pays for itself because it's maintenance free. I would rather pay and be maintenance free than have to fiddle with changing cables and readjusting. I will never go back to mechanical.

As far as the split here in LA... If say it's probably 70-30 mechanical wins it. But it depends what group of people you are riding with there are a ton of expensive bikes/builds out here. If you ride with a more serious group electronic will probably win it.
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Old 07-23-18, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 69chevy View Post
I have mechanical Ultegra and can't for the life of me think of a single reason to go to electronic shifting other than it's neat.

My bike shifts everytime, I'd lose as much or more riding time due to dead batteries as I would broken cables, and spend as much or more time charging batteries as I would changing cables.

I've never once shifted and thought, man that was slow...
The ELEMNT Bolt will inform you when your battery hits 20%
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Old 07-23-18, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 69chevy View Post
, I'd lose as much or more riding time due to dead batteries as I would broken cables, and spend as much or more time charging batteries as I would changing cables.

I've never once shifted and thought, man that was slow...
It's probably quicker charging the battery and less hassle as well than changing cables. You literally plug the junction box into a socket and walk away and come back. Not to mention even the most active cyclist will only have to charge once a month IF that. Most people can go 3-6 months without charging. I've only charged my battery 3 times in 4000 miles of riding and I shift quite frequently.

Most of the people saying "man I'll never need it or want it" are people who have never had the pleasure of getting on a electronic groupset. The difference is literally night and day.
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Old 07-23-18, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 69chevy View Post
I have mechanical Ultegra and can't for the life of me think of a single reason to go to electronic shifting other than it's neat.

I'd lose as much or more riding time due to dead batteries as I would broken cables, and spend as much or more time charging batteries as I would changing cables.
Incorrect.

How long does it take to plug your phone into it's charger? It's the same for Di2, but you only have to charge the Di2 every 2-3 months.
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Old 07-23-18, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by logical View Post
Most of the people saying "man I'll never need it or want it" are people who have never had the pleasure of getting on a electronic groupset. The difference is literally night and day.
You are right - more like day and nightmare. I rode Ultegra Di2 for a year and by the end of the season absolutely hated it. I missed the visceral feel of the shifting, being able to feel the moment the chain engaged the ramp in the cassette. I found that with the electronic shift I would have been happier riding a spin bike in front of the TV. It just took something critical away from why I like to ride. If you enjoy the electronic shift, great, I'm happy to hear it. But it isn't for me.

One of the ironies of all the car analogies being used is that I helped design a transmission control unit (the control electronics) used on a dual-clutch transmission that is in current production. I have plenty of miles on the proving grounds with dual-clutch transmissions. Paddle shifting is an interesting novelty but I'll take the 3 pedal option please.
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Old 07-23-18, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RGMN View Post
You are right - more like day and nightmare. I rode Ultegra Di2 for a year and by the end of the season absolutely hated it. I missed the visceral feel of the shifting, being able to feel the moment the chain engaged the ramp in the cassette. I found that with the electronic shift I would have been happier riding a spin bike in front of the TV. It just took something critical away from why I like to ride. If you enjoy the electronic shift, great, I'm happy to hear it. But it isn't for me.

One of the ironies of all the car analogies being used is that I helped design a transmission control unit (the control electronics) used on a dual-clutch transmission that is in current production. I have plenty of miles on the proving grounds with dual-clutch transmissions. Paddle shifting is an interesting novelty but I'll take the 3 pedal option please.
The feel is definitely something for debate. But it seems like a lot of people who buck the trend of electronic gearing seem to be the same people who don't want disc brake because thats not the way it's been done.

Your example of being taken off the road completely and being better off on a spin bike is funny though. Electronic gearing doesn't take that much feeling out of the bike.

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Old 07-23-18, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Incorrect.

How long does it take to plug your phone into it's charger? It's the same for Di2, but you only have to charge the Di2 every 2-3 months.
I've never understood that argument. The following is the list of things that have to be kept charged:

iPhone
iPad
Kindle
Garmin 935
Garmin 520
Qollector
bike lights
running headlamps

Adding another to that list is child's play. Acting like the next one is a bridge too far (especially one that needs it every few months, or a few times per season) is like saying "I have to go to the store for bread, milk, eggs, and cheese. Now you want bananas too? That's just overwhelming; I can't even with the grocery list these days."
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Old 07-23-18, 07:05 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
Does Di2 really have issues on rough roads? I read about a lot of teams in the TDF switching to mechanical for the Paris-Roubaix stage last Sunday, and the ones who didn't ran a 44 or 46 small ring so they could still race if their bike quit shifting on the cobbles.
Sagan won on a Specialized with mechanical DA. I can somewhat understand the choice. Mechanical has a greater travel to the levers, especially going to big ring or smaller cogs. I could see where the extremely bumpy surface could mean a possible inadvertent button press if riding the brakes and getting bounced around. I also read some were using an Ultegra rear mech with a clutch, which helps prevent chain slap and bouncing off the rings,
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Old 07-24-18, 12:50 AM
  #74  
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​​​​​​​I figure ride what you want.
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Old 07-24-18, 03:53 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by oldnslow2 View Post
Funny, but my Subaru shifts quicker and gets better MPG with the CVT vs the manual. All modern race cars have electronic shifting.
If your CVT is shifting you should probably have it checked.
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