Voodoo76

But it's not because you are older, it's because the ride is harder relative to your ability. It's not the same ride. You measure intensity relative to what you are capable of at that moment in time.

Campag4life

Good to see a healthy dose of denial among the aging set. Something to be said for denial. I think I can, I think I can as the parable goes.

Even though, the .5% degradation value is likely accurate, it doesn't have to be so under the following conditions. In fact the same predicate for Voodoo's response.
If one isn't training optimally to eek out every last watt through utter discipline of training, one can do better into the future i.e. your suggestion to Voodoo to get stronger...or Voodoo's idea to get a coach to keep him on track. But the downward trend is immutable in spite of denial...lol. I ride with a lot of fast old guys who too are not going quietly into the night. Me either FWIW but f-all that high training discipline stuff. I sold my Garmin. I swag my riding and in doing so am leaving something on the table of course which is OK. Worth it to me to not have this encumbrance although I am always fascinated by oldsters I know that train with rigor. Almost all the guys I ride with are on Strava. I don't do that either but I can keep up.

Campag4life

Then please answer this if you would. Why aren't there any 50 y.o.'s in the TdF? You don't believe there are any genetically gifted riders that are willing to train to the nth degree? No, they can't train to the other guys level is the point. They can't hit their numbers. Father time. No 45 y.o's in the NBA either. Not one.
Sorry I disagree. I do agree you can be decent cyclist into old age. My numbers are around yours. But with equivalent training, you can't be the cyclist you were in your 30's. Sorry.

Wattsup

Well, yeah, if you want to fool someone (and yourself) with artificially high CTL figures. I think the theory is sound though, that fatigue decays more quickly than fitness, and that your readiness to compete is based on the difference. Yes, I am aware that training load may be calculated incorrectly with certain types of workouts, but once you understand the specifics, you can manually enter TSS values. You can also adjust ATL and CTL decay rates if you desire. I think the idea is to understand the shortcomings of the PMC and adjust based on your experience gained from season to season.

Campag4life

For others and me to follow along who aren't as conversant with this lexicon:

Chasing peak fitness:
https://blog.trainerroad.com/why-tss...nd-tsb-matter/

Hermes

Campag4life

A great attitude for sure. But age limits us all. Not many 13 y.o.'s in the TdF either.
An arms race maybe a bit melodramatic but point taken.
Remember when Lance tried to come back in '09 and couldn't beat his team member Contador? Of course that was the beginning of his downfall.

Would say most here try to beat down father time.
My girlfriend has commented to me, I can't believe how fast some old guys are who look like they are almost dead that can drop her...lol.

There are some pretty old looking dudes who can really ride. This one guy who rides in our group who is 65, he races every year in the nationals and has a coach etc.
The guy looks older than dirt but can still fly on the bike. My nickname for him is grandpa.

Voodoo76

Entry into the game is certainly getting higher. There are some really talented riders putting a lot into their training. On the plus side I find value in the work, the results are what they are.

rubiksoval

If you're having to manually override TSS scores because the model has led to artificially inflated values, then that's an issue with the system. I imagine people that understand the system and the training to that extent aren't dependent on that system to begin with, so the whole thing at that point is reduced to simply hitting the target rather than the bulls-eye.

I think your assertion that readiness to compete is based on the difference is hugely flawed, however. I've had awesome races and brilliant feelings from -30 TSB to + 30 TSB, and most seem to report the same from -15 to + 10, at the least. It's a decently large range. And even within that range you can have bad days, and outside the range you can have great days.

I mean, something as innocuous as blood plasma volume being lower due to a few days off can leave you feeling awful, even though the corresponding tsb might be in that "ideal range". Muscle tension/flat legs as well seems independent of those variables.

Enter the art of coaching/training versus just the science.

Wattsup

That's a great segue into an argument from authority...

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitnes...oftware-369155

rubiksoval

Without reading the link, what's the argument?

frogman

You hit the nail on the head. I agree 100%

wphamilton

Needing more recovery time doesn't necessarily mean over-training. I couldn't over-train on cycling if I tried. Well maybe, but more likely something is going to break down before getting to that point. But I'd be fooling myself if I thought I didn't need more recovery now than I did 20 years ago. That's pretty much inevitable.

After a certain point, we're no longer managing training load relative to performance improvement. We're limiting total stress because we cannot withstand the same levels as we could before. So the whole question is relative - but I'd say relative to the limiting total training stress, or training load or however you want to measure it, you do need relatively more recovery from that as you get older.

Campag4life

In bold seems incongruous with your other comments in the post I agree with. Really? I sure agree I as well as my riding buddies need more recovery as we age. Riding intensity even affects ability to recover in the TdF. If a given rider gives his all in one stage, he may have nothing left in the next stage. Intensity of riding affected his inability to recover.

One can't create a less stressful training regiment whereby less recovery is necessary? Why not? I can ride 30 miles a day at Z1, everyday with no need for recovery. To me, intensity of training affects recovery. It is the reason we don't train harder.

wphamilton

Over-training = exceeding your body's recovery capacity. Injuring yourself =/= overtraining. Risk of immediate injury is somewhere beyond that "overtraining" line for young athletes, but can be before that line at a more advanced age.

We all do a lot of cycling, we're in good fitness for it, and can pretty much do as we like without much concern. But take up something else, that you haven't trained for or even attempted in a long time, and it becomes a lot more obvious. I could ramp up the intensity and volume up to a point where I could easily recover in a day, or two or three days, barring injury. But that point, for some activities, is going to be beyond the point where I could expect an injury. It's a key difference IMO, that we need to stay aware of as we get older.

Campag4life

Unapologetically you have created successive posts above….lol.

Somehow, I expect ‘more spin’ forthcoming.

colnago62

wphamilton

Needing more recovery time doesn't necessarily mean over-training.
Over-training = exceeding your body's recovery capacity.

I don't see why these would be contradictory, so I'm not going to "spin" anything.

wphamilton

Exactly. And maybe by tomorrow morning I'm recovered to go again, but to head out right away for a night out on the town, not so much.

canklecat

Yep, at 60 I was forced to acknowledge age as a factor, despite my best efforts.

And, yeah, I'm motivated to maximize my fitness goals while it's still possible to improve. By the time I'm 70 it'll be all downhill no matter what I try. But I'm still in the gray zone where I can continue to improve a little for a little while longer.

For example, three days of real HIIT last summer (2017), along with other rides = bad pookie. One a week is closer to appropriate for me.

I modified my training. Nothing rigid, just fairly methodical to suit my schedule and usual life demands. By this spring I was significantly stronger and faster. Even cracked a few top tens on Strava, including on some modest climbs and roller coaster routes where a year earlier I was dead last on every climb.

Then I was hit by a car in May, busted up my shoulder, then some other health problems piled on. So it'll be awhile before I'm back to that peak.

At the moment, it's a chore just to do three consecutive days of riding 10-40 miles at moderate effort. Did that Monday-Wednesday this week and by Thursday I could hardly move at all. So I have to gear my training to what I can actually handle rather than toward my expectations. Pretty much what that article and similar articles and training experts have advised: listen to your body. Today, body said "nap".

Campag4life

Sorry to learn you were hit a car canklecat. Really sucks and what we all most fear. Glad you are back on the bike.
I was doing a lot of high mileage endurance riding just before I hit 60 y.o. I found without more rest, it was breaking me down more than building me up.
60 seemed to be a bit of wall even though I still feel pretty sporty on the bike or don't have trouble keeping up with most riders. If I ride more and harder, I need more time off the bike is what I have learned to not lose strength. I also do weight training and swim and so have to be careful about not overtraining.

I hope you get back to full strength. I wrote in another thread about my riding buddies going down a lot in group rides. These are fast long time riders that are hitting the deck. The group ride could go almost 2 years without injury and then a spate of crashes. These are good riders and not hacks.

Feel well and ride safe.

canklecat

Thanks. Yeah, it's coming back, slowly. I was frustrated because after 5 months the shoulder didn't seem to be healing much. Ortho said it improved from a grade 4 separation to grade 3, but that didn't sound very encouraging after 5 months. And it still ached as much as it did back in June.

The ortho doc thought I might be overdoing my home physical therapy. So I stopped using any weights (I used 5-10 lb weights after three months and it aggravated the shoulder a lot worse). And eased up from the range of motion stretching, and slowed down my more moderate range of motion exercises. That seemed to help.

But the main aggravation might have been trying to use the drop bar road bike too soon and too much. Six weeks after the injury I was on the bike on a Cyclops trainer. Two or three weeks later I was on the road, just once a week, for 10-30 miles. Probably not a good idea. But I didn't want to lose my legs and lungs after working so hard to get into shape.

By August I was miserable and frustrated. I cut way back on the exercises, from 100 reps of each range of motion exercise to about 25% of that, and skipped some entire days other than moderate stretching.

A friend who'd been keeping my hybrid in his garage (it's the bike I was riding when I was hit in May) had replaced the bent wheels with some take-offs from another bike, and suggested I try one of his swept bars -- he's a big fan of North Roads and albatross bars. He's as fast on his 30-35 lb hybrids with flipped swept back bars as I am on my road bike.

So I replaced the hybrid's riser bar with a Nitto albatross. Been riding it for three weeks and it's a huge improvement. I tried flipping the bar for one 40-mile ride (casual pace, lots of rest stops), but the shoulder didn't care for that. With the albatross upright but grips right at saddle height it's perfect. Balance and handling are different of course but I adapted quickly.

Eventually I may swap the stem for one from my road bike parts box, but I'm not gonna rush it since the bike is comfortable now. And the albatross bar offers different hand positions. It's more versatile than I'd expected. Pretty much like riding the hoods or bar tops for a little more aero position or climbing into headwinds. Not bad at all. And the conventional upright position is actually pretty good in traffic, easier to look around.

This past week is the first time since May I haven't had a single day where I wished I had something stronger than ibuprofen for pain (my health network is very strict about prescription pain meds). Finally feels like the shoulder is making some progress.

So basically I had to change my expectations, listen to my body and not to the tutorials designed for younger athletes. It's hard to be patient because I've never had such a lingering injury before. But I'm looking forward to getting back into peak condition after upcoming surgery (thyroid, not shoulder).

profjmb

I'm 61 and I definitely need 2 days to recover from hard riding (intervals usually). I don't remember what it was like in my 30s, when things were likely different, and never did hard intervals then.

My routine:
Day 1: Hard interval (I alternate these four, never doing the sprint ones consecutively: 4 Bike Training Workouts)

Day 2: Recovery ride (100 watts average for an hour)

Day 3: Rest

Day 4: Hard interval

Day 5: Recovery ride

Day 6: Rest

Repeat for another week, then do a soft week consisting of 2-3 rides well below FTP. Then back on.

MSchott

As a fitness road rider I try to ride every other day when time permits. I'm 61 with an 8 year old son and plenty of other commitments include work travel but at that pace I don't have any issues with riding to my capacity. I've done a few back to back days and I recall it took a few days to recover from those.