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More recovery time as we age?

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More recovery time as we age?

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Old 09-16-18, 05:28 AM
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More recovery time as we age?

Many of us don't like to think about rest and recovery. We like to ride and think about riding. So rest for people that love to ride isn' perhaps the most popular subject. But when we tear ourselves down from high exertion, it is rest that in theory builds us up to be stronger. So the theory goes. But what if we don't give our bodies enough rest as we age to recover and regrow as strong if not stronger? Since there are a lot of strong older cyclists on this forum, I thought I would ask the collective strategy of members here...just how much have you increased recovery time with age?

Understanding the bell curve isn't exactly symmetric...a club member I know who is 72 and did over 20K miles last year...but please share comments about your personal recovery schedule. Do you ride every day? Or do you deliberately not ride every day to rest your body?

Have you noticed your body just doesn't recover as fast and you need more rest time between higher exertion efforts?

Here is an article that touches on it explaining the biology of slower recovery time of aging cyclists isn't really understood:

https://semiprocycling.com/how-agein...to-do-about-it

I would be curious if many older riders have realized this and built more recovery into their training which has resulted in them being stronger overall on the bike.

Thanks
PS: an irony if not self fulfilling prophesy of training is, we train to get stronger of course. But what if we are over training and don't know it? In other words, we believe we are training at the right intensity and rest intervals to build maximum performance but in effect, we aren't resting enough as we age? We blame decline in performance on age and yet the true root cause maybe be obscured in insufficient rest and recovery. Like an unknowable answer. Where is Goldilocks?

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Old 09-16-18, 06:15 AM
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I follow a schedule set by my coach. Depending on phase of my training, Iíll take 2 days rest per week, do 1-3 intense workouts per week and 1-3 higher volume fun/mental break/easy to moderate intensity rides per week. I donít take full weeks (or multiple full weeks) off the bike, as masters lose fitness more quickly and have more work to regain fitness when compared to younger people; this influences training in that more fun/enjoyable stuff has to be weaved in all year long, otherwise you might not want to stay on the bike year round.

Overall, my volume is kept under wraps, which allows more intensity. I actually am someone who can handle large training volumes but it has to be lower intensity stuff that builds endurance over speed. Speed is my goal, so volume can be counterproductive (even though itís what my peers care about mostly).

Also lots of stretching and core/strength. Stretching all the time, core/strength in various forms once a week.
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Old 09-16-18, 06:45 AM
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It seems your question assumes there are significant people on this forum that are doing structured training with the purpose of maximizing their performance.

I very seriously doubt there are more than a few. And of those few, I'd wager that none are overtraining, and likely none are significantly overreaching, at least in terms of planned periodization (as most have necessary breaks due to life factors).

It's common sense that recovery needs change throughout life. I don't think it's a significant factor for the average weekend warrior, though.
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Old 09-16-18, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
It seems your question assumes there are significant people on this forum that are doing structured training with the purpose of maximizing their performance.

I very seriously doubt there are more than a few. And of those few, I'd wager that none are overtraining, and likely none are significantly overreaching, at least in terms of planned periodization (as most have necessary breaks due to life factors).

It's common sense that recovery needs change throughout life. I don't think it's a significant factor for the average weekend warrior, though.
Rube, you and I have to carve out some peace brother. How silly to believe how many train here on the non racing forum and if it is any predicate whatsoever for not resting enough. It isn't. A person can be completely undisciplined in their training and over train...like by doing a A group ride 6 x's week with no rest.

Perhaps better not to respond to my posts because you and I don't see eye to eye as we have discovered several times.
I have to laugh at your opening salvo. The only person in the thread that has responded has a coach and rides to a strict discipline.

So please for sake of forum decorum, don't respond to my posts and if you like I can extend the same courtesy to you.
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Old 09-16-18, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Rube, you and I have to carve out some peace brother. Perhaps better not to respond to my posts because you and I don't see eye to eye as we have discovered several times.
I have to laugh at your opening salvo. The only person in the thread that has responded has a coach and rides to a strict discipline.
So please for sake of forum decorum, don't respond to my posts and if you like I can extend the same courtesy to you.
She was one of the few I was speaking about. She is certainly not the norm for this place.

Gotta face it, man, cycling as a sport and cycling as a hobby are two different things. People approach them very differently. While people can cycle for performance AND enjoyment, one has far greater demands if the goal is improving it.

This is a discussion forum. I'm going to respond to posts like I typically do. You can make the decision to troll my posts or not, but I'm not going to adjust my posting habits because you might not be able to control yourself.
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Old 09-16-18, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
How silly to believe how many train here on the non racing forum and if it is any predicate whatsoever for not resting enough. It isn't. A person can be completely undisciplined in their training and over train...like by doing a A group ride 6 x's week with no rest.
Missed your edit.

People that are doing group rides 6x a week aren't training. They're out doing group rides 6x a week, presumably because they like doing so, with no other agenda than participating in said group rides.
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Old 09-16-18, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
I follow a schedule set by my coach. Depending on phase of my training, I’ll take 2 days rest per week, do 1-3 intense workouts per week and 1-3 higher volume fun/mental break/easy to moderate intensity rides per week. I don’t take full weeks (or multiple full weeks) off the bike, as masters lose fitness more quickly and have more work to regain fitness when compared to younger people; this influences training in that more fun/enjoyable stuff has to be weaved in all year long, otherwise you might not want to stay on the bike year round.

Overall, my volume is kept under wraps, which allows more intensity. I actually am someone who can handle large training volumes but it has to be lower intensity stuff that builds endurance over speed. Speed is my goal, so volume can be counterproductive (even though it’s what my peers care about mostly).

Also lots of stretching and core/strength. Stretching all the time, core/strength in various forms once a week.
Thanks Healthpack. Makes sense with a coach and riding to a particular tailored regiment you would not suffer the fate of overtraining. I am sure your purpose of seeking a coach is to find Goldilocks...not over train and not under train to find your best fitness.

My issue even though I am generally disciplined in my life in term of balance, pretty strict diet for an average guy...limited alcohol, adequate sleep....I specifically don't train to a regiment or seek a coach to put me on a given schedule. This is deliberate. I don't view cycling as a discipline but rather recreational fitness. So a guy like me then is subject to the whimsy of riding too much or too hard or not hard enough and thereby perhaps optimizing my fitness.

But, your approach is right to find Goldilocks I believe. I was asking more generically on the general cycling forum for those that may not train with high discipline. Btw, your training regiment makes a lot of sense to me. I was asking more in generic terms. Reason I asked is I have this conversation with several older riders who are still fast and I stumbled upon that article which was compelling and seemed to support this assertion. Most say with age, they have to take a bit more time off the bike. And was wondering how many older riders were still training with the same intensity they did perhaps 20 years ago.

Thanks for response and well done on your training.

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Old 09-16-18, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Missed your edit.

People that are doing group rides 6x a week aren't training. They're out doing group rides 6x a week, presumably because they like doing so, with no other agenda than participating in said group rides.
OK. Distinction understood. A-group rides aren't training even if that is all a person does.
Now can we not engage?
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Old 09-16-18, 08:23 AM
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A marriage was never in the cards.
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Old 09-16-18, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
She was one of the few I was speaking about. She is certainly not the norm for this place.

Gotta face it, man, cycling as a sport and cycling as a hobby are two different things. People approach them very differently. While people can cycle for performance AND enjoyment, one has far greater demands if the goal is improving it.

This is a discussion forum. I'm going to respond to posts like I typically do. You can make the decision to troll my posts or not, but I'm not going to adjust my posting habits because you might not be able to control yourself.
No I can control myself. You are just wrong on so many levels is all. Sorry but its true, like you have been even in this thread about judging percentage that 'train'..or whether their regiment of training affects quantity of rest. Ridiculous assertions. For example. Let's say 10% train to disciplined regiment. Want me to recite who they are? Its a copious group of members here. It doesn't matter who does or doesn't train to a given regiment is the point. It is irrelevant to discussion about rest. Yes, more disciplined trainers are likely going to build in more rest but they can still over train. Get it? Such a simple concept See how you and I get off track? You are wrong and I respond.

So because you want to engage me, it is you who can't control yourself I will not respond to you. Reason is simple. No common ground and best 'for forum decorum'. Selfish otherwise isn't it to bicker?..lol.

So respond to my posts, and I best not respond to you for forum etiquette and to save me a lot of time. How's that?
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Old 09-16-18, 08:36 AM
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I'm in the "those who train" group. I can't remember the last time I rode for only the pleasure of it. Yeah, so I'm weird, what's new? That saiid, I find great pleasure in a job well done, no matter what it is. Stoker and I had a wonderful tandem ride yesterday, great fun, and also fitting perfectly into our week's training plan - CTL coming up 3 points this week, perfect. Another Perfect Rideô. HRV off just slightly this morning, just like it should be. So I can have my cake and eat it too, dammit. It's raining today, so it'll have to be an hour of VT1 on the rollers. That's not that much fun in the moment, but it's necessary to make the future fun instead of one long bummer of decline.

We usually take 1 day/week off. We watch our recovery with HR and HRV every morning and modulate the training as necessary. Yes, recovery does get slower as we age. Of course. However it's not hard to work around that. One simply has to pay attention to what's going on.
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Old 09-16-18, 08:39 AM
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Sure it matters. If the condition is improved performance, then there has to be some type a plan to improve that performance. And where there is, then rest factors in to that, and the amount of rest will vary depending on age, fitness level, experience, etc.

However, if the condition is a social component, and rides are done just for the sake of riding or the enjoyment of a group ride, then that's something altogether different and the likelihood of over reaching or training becomes even less, thus the structured implementation of rest and recovery is unnecessary.

You mentioned in your op "tearing yourself down to regrow and recover". I think most people are inclined to rest and recover when they're tired already, and additional life factors cause an overabundance of rest to begin with.

Most all of the people in here could probably improve by increasing their training load. It seems you're presupposing that this "copious group of posters" have already maxed training load and would actually benefit from additional recovery. I assert that isn't the case for the vast majority, if not nearly all.
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Old 09-16-18, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I'm in the "those who train" group. I can't remember the last time I rode for only the pleasure of it. Yeah, so I'm weird, what's new? That saiid, I find great pleasure in a job well done, no matter what it is. Stoker and I had a wonderful tandem ride yesterday, great fun, and also fitting perfectly into our week's training plan - CTL coming up 3 points this week, perfect. Another Perfect Ride™. HRV off just slightly this morning, just like it should be. So I can have my cake and eat it too, dammit. It's raining today, so it'll have to be an hour of VT1 on the rollers. That's not that much fun in the moment, but it's necessary to make the future fun instead of one long bummer of decline.

We usually take 1 day/week off. We watch our recovery with HR and HRV every morning and modulate the training as necessary. Yes, recovery does get slower as we age. Of course. However it's not hard to work around that. One simply has to pay attention to what's going on.
Thanks Carbonfiberboy. Figured you maybe one of the trainers on the forum. Only 1 day off the bike isn't a lot. Perhaps you have adjusted your intensity to have more 'recovery type' rides or ride in lower heart rate zones for more duration on the bike as you age.
Thanks again and congrats on integrating pleasure riding with your training regiment including your s/o. Best of all worlds.
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Old 09-16-18, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Thanks Carbonfiberboy. Figured you maybe one of the trainers on the forum. Only 1 day off the bike isn't a lot. Perhaps you have adjusted your intensity to have more 'recovery type' rides or ride in lower heart rate zones for more duration on the bike as you age.
Thanks again and congrats on integrating pleasure riding with your training regiment including your s/o. Best of all worlds.
Well, since @rubiksoval declared that Z1 rides were a waste of time I've stopped doing them, using VT1 rides in their place with probably better results. But yes, lots of zone 2 stuff, some weights, and higher zone work as necessary to have fun on group rides. One can do anything one wants as long as one monitors one's HR numbers and modulates training as necessary. Experiment. I'd say the bigger "danger" is doing too little, not too much.
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Old 09-16-18, 10:21 AM
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OP, as with most things training related, it depends.

Some people will need more rest and recovery as they age than others. In some cases, it depends on the duration and/or intensity of the workouts.

As for overtraining, yes, that is possible, but it's not easy to get there. If you are concerned you may be overtraining, then you might be wise to invest in a coach or training plan specific to you and your needs.
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Old 09-16-18, 10:49 AM
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I'm 57 and notice no difference at all in recovery times after rides, compared to my 20's. Maybe less time now because I'm smarter about post-ride eating, rest, and re-hydration.

I have not actually timed myself, but I still feel every bit as fast as I did 30 years ago. The differences are shockingly minimal to non-existent. I used to think 57 was old, but no more. Though I should probably time myself just to confirm it.
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Old 09-16-18, 10:54 AM
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My day job is education, so I have about 8 weeks off in the summer. I donít train anymore like I did when I was racing. I am heading towards 57 years old. I have found that I canít ride everyday through the summer and recover anymore. Summertime I used to do about 250 - 300 miles a week of just riding around, around 1,100 miles a month. I canít do this anymore because I donít recover. This started being an issue in my early 50ís. I now ride 5days a week in the summer and limit my long ride.
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Old 09-16-18, 10:56 AM
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I guess it helps, in my case, that I was never that "fast" to begin with, even in my 20's.

When you say "ride every day", do you mean ride hard every day? Not ever Tour riders do that. You can't even do "recovery rides" on some days? I'm always up for that, and they do help quite a bit in recovery. provided I take it easy.

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Old 09-16-18, 11:36 AM
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Thanks guys, I was looking for a general trend. If older riders have noticed a change as the article pointed out about why we don't recover the same with age.
I think the answer given by topflightpro, a long time member here to be probably most telling. It does depend on each of us indeed and even our expectations of what we are trying to get out cycling...how hard we push and how often. If well underneath a high threshold than probably variability in recovery doesn't matter so much.

Here's a good article on Overtraining aka OTS:
https://www.bicycling.com/training/a...o-do-about-it/

on Recovery:
Whats the big deal with Recovery in Cycling? - Rowe & King
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Old 09-16-18, 11:37 AM
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Train smarter not harder. I think most people that are serious about a sport overtrain. Gains are made in recovery from rest and diet, gains aren't made from training for hours a day. I've been involved in various sports for 25+ years from cycling, martial arts, weights and team sports and I think people are just catching on.
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Old 09-16-18, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Well, since @rubiksoval declared that Z1 rides were a waste of time I've stopped doing them, using VT1 rides in their place with probably better results. But yes, lots of zone 2 stuff, some weights, and higher zone work as necessary to have fun on group rides. One can do anything one wants as long as one monitors one's HR numbers and modulates training as necessary. Experiment. I'd say the bigger "danger" is doing too little, not too much.
Indeed. Recovery can happen while riding, and certainly happens when not riding. But if time is of the essence and fatigue is too great, then not riding is definitely a win/win.

Consistent progression and variety are key. If you want to get as fast as possible you can't go hard all the time and you can't go easy all the time.
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Old 09-16-18, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rms13 View Post
Train smarter not harder. I think most people that are serious about a sport overtrain. .
No way. Overtraining is rare. Most people do not come even close to overtraining.

It took me months of 23-29 hour weeks to overtrain, and then took months and months to partially recover from and nearly a year to fully recover from.

Now overreaching and plateauing and even burning out (temporarily for some, permanently for a few) certainly happens more often. But physical overtraining, not so much.
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Old 09-16-18, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
No way. Overtraining is rare. Most people do not come even close to overtraining.

It took me months of 23-29 hour weeks to overtrain, and then took months and months to partially recover from and nearly a year to fully recover from.

Now overreaching and plateauing and even burning out (temporarily for some, permanently for a few) certainly happens more often. But physical overtraining, not so much.
This.

You have to really overdo it to land into the world of overtraining. It took me months of 20+ hour weeks. Burn out is way more common, but that is more mental wear than physical.
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Old 09-16-18, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
This.

You have to really overdo it to land into the world of overtraining. It took me months of 20+ hour weeks. Burn out is way more common, but that is more mental wear than physical.
I overreached badly once and that really put the fear into me. I suspect that's very common. We all need to overreach more often. I was doing 5 X 8' Z5 intervals and getting faster very quickly until suddenly I wasn't. Took me a couple weeks of easy before I was able to train again. But that's not overtraining. Might have gotten there if I'd thought more hard work would have fixed my slump. English tense progressions are always fun.
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Old 09-16-18, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
No way. Overtraining is rare. Most people do not come even close to overtraining.

It took me months of 23-29 hour weeks to overtrain, and then took months and months to partially recover from and nearly a year to fully recover from.

Now overreaching and plateauing and even burning out (temporarily for some, permanently for a few) certainly happens more often. But physical overtraining, not so much.

Ok. How old are you? How long have you been training? What kind of off the bike training do you do? How much sleep do you get? What's your diet? I'd bet you could get same results in 12-15 hrs of training per week.

I do agree that if you strictly train on the bike than it's hard to over train because once your body is adapted then cycling isn't a big strain on your system.

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