> >
>

# Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

# Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

02-26-24, 02:32 PM
#51
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,906

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3923 Post(s)
Liked 7,226 Times in 2,922 Posts
A footnote for that pressure calculator states the minimum pressure for 25C hookless tires is 70 psi. That's doesn't give you much range, given the ETRTO maximum pressure for hookless tires is 72.5 psi.
02-26-24, 04:52 PM
#52
Advocatus Diaboli

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,626

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4725 Post(s)
Liked 1,529 Times in 1,000 Posts
Originally Posted by eduskator
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/global/tire-pressure

Drops to 63PSI if you're using 22.4mm inner width rims.
In this instance, Giant is playing the same marketing game that Zipp does. They created a calculator that works down from the max weight that the wheels can handle and puts the ETRTO max (eg. 73psi) there as the correct PSI.

Likes For Sy Reene:
02-26-24, 10:14 PM
#53
Senior Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,497
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1367 Post(s)
Liked 475 Times in 277 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I went to the Flo website for a comparison of hooked and hookless rims. https://blog.flocycling.com/carbon-w...hookless-rims/ Eye opener for me. Those CF hooked sidewalls are thin. No wonder they break. The hookless looks like a 35 year old sewup rims. (So tweak the hookless rim slightly, glue that sewup on, run half the sealant and skip the insert. Light, probably near as fast, no limits on tire pressure and safe. Development costs? Done already! Yes, never going to happen despite being so easy.)
You are on to something. If you reduce the size of the hooks to zero, you'll save a lot of weight at the most critical part of a bike: rotating weight. The elimination of the hooks also makes the rims a lot more robust, and less susceptible to impact damage. Of course, pinch flats would also be eliminated, as the rim profile would be rounded and smooth.

If you were to sew the bottom of the tires together to make a sausage, and with a few grams of high strength glue the tire to this much improved rim, safety would also be improved substantially. Then, in the event of a sudden blowout, the tire would stay put, glued flat on the rim, and not get jammed up in the frame or the brakes. It would be much easier to roll away from a flat.

Of course, with the elimination of the hooks and with a glued-on tire, the rim would now be insulated from tire inflation pressure, so that you could pump up the tire until it exploded. With no pinch flat problems, you could also run the tire at very low pressures. So you could run this system at very wide pressure inflation range.

Perfect solution: lighter stronger, safer.
02-27-24, 03:55 AM
#54
Fat n slow

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,287

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3243 Post(s)
Liked 2,059 Times in 973 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak
Yes. That was my point. I'm also dubious about the claim that the reduced cost of manufacture is being passed on to the customer.
I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for \$900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
02-27-24, 05:02 AM
#55
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,335
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4372 Post(s)
Liked 4,792 Times in 2,963 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for \$900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
Is there an equivalent hooked version to compare pricing?
02-27-24, 05:58 AM
#56
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,335
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4372 Post(s)
Liked 4,792 Times in 2,963 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
You are on to something. If you reduce the size of the hooks to zero, you'll save a lot of weight at the most critical part of a bike: rotating weight. The elimination of the hooks also makes the rims a lot more robust, and less susceptible to impact damage. Of course, pinch flats would also be eliminated, as the rim profile would be rounded and smooth.

If you were to sew the bottom of the tires together to make a sausage, and with a few grams of high strength glue the tire to this much improved rim, safety would also be improved substantially. Then, in the event of a sudden blowout, the tire would stay put, glued flat on the rim, and not get jammed up in the frame or the brakes. It would be much easier to roll away from a flat.

Of course, with the elimination of the hooks and with a glued-on tire, the rim would now be insulated from tire inflation pressure, so that you could pump up the tire until it exploded. With no pinch flat problems, you could also run the tire at very low pressures. So you could run this system at very wide pressure inflation range.

Perfect solution: lighter stronger, safer.
Nobody wants to deal with the impracticality of tubulars, especially without a service car following behind. That’s why they are very close to being history. Even when they were popular in racing, many riders preferred to train on clinchers for easier roadside repair. Now that there is no performance advantage (I realise you are still in denial) there is no need to compromise on practicality.
Likes For PeteHski:
02-27-24, 07:57 AM
#57
Sunshine

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,581

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10937 Post(s)
Liked 7,449 Times in 4,169 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for \$900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
They are \$1000-1200 new right now, based on a 30sec search.
What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?

Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on.

When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel. Also, msrp was \$1300. You got em for \$900, but let's not pretend like you bought em at full msrp price.
https://bikerumor.com/new-zipp-303-s...ess-expensive/
Likes For mstateglfr:
02-27-24, 08:07 AM
#58
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,499
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3226 Post(s)
Liked 2,499 Times in 1,506 Posts
Originally Posted by choddo
The safety foam in the picture with this article, is that for a specific type of rim/tire combo? Or is it required for all rim/tire combos at that level of racing?
02-27-24, 08:39 AM
#59
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,335
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4372 Post(s)
Liked 4,792 Times in 2,963 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat
The safety foam in the picture with this article, is that for a specific type of rim/tire combo? Or is it required for all rim/tire combos at that level of racing?
The foam inserts are optional for extra flat protection - they can run flat for quite some time, which is useful for racers in some situations. Some teams use foam inserts, some don't.
Likes For PeteHski:
02-27-24, 09:08 AM
#60
Senior Member

Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 1,404
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 682 Post(s)
Liked 452 Times in 338 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat
The safety foam in the picture with this article, is that for a specific type of rim/tire combo? Or is it required for all rim/tire combos at that level of racing?
I think it’s a matter of choice. It’s supposed to keep you rolling if you get a flat, less time
lost on the group sorting a replacement bike or wheel.
02-27-24, 09:15 AM
#61
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Turku, Finland, Europe
Posts: 2,491

Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 861 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times in 221 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
The foam inserts are optional for extra flat protection - they can run flat for quite some time, which is useful for racers in some situations. Some teams use foam inserts, some don't.
Would be interesting to know how much of an effect (if any) foam inserts have on rolling resistance. While they shouldn't directly interact with the tire, they do remove some of the air volume inside the tire.

The response of my manitou suspension fork can be adjusted by adding or removing air volume. With the same air pressure, different air volumes give widely different responses. It wouldn't be nearly as obvious with tires, but I suppose some difference could be possible.
02-27-24, 09:31 AM
#62
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,335
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4372 Post(s)
Liked 4,792 Times in 2,963 Posts
Originally Posted by elcruxio
Would be interesting to know how much of an effect (if any) foam inserts have on rolling resistance. While they shouldn't directly interact with the tire, they do remove some of the air volume inside the tire.

The response of my manitou suspension fork can be adjusted by adding or removing air volume. With the same air pressure, different air volumes give widely different responses. It wouldn't be nearly as obvious with tires, but I suppose some difference could be possible.
I think the increase in rolling resistance is minimal, which is why they often race with them. I have never tried them myself, but I might this year. It's been a few years since I had a flat, but I would quite like the safety of a run flat tyre. Obviously backfired in this crash, but I've never had a tubeless tyre pop off the rim, even with a flat.

Edit: When pressurised these foam inserts pack down into almost zero volume against the rim bed
Likes For PeteHski:
02-27-24, 09:42 AM
#63
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,499
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3226 Post(s)
Liked 2,499 Times in 1,506 Posts
As it relates to the thread subject, hopefully they don't weigh close to 50 grams.
02-27-24, 10:15 AM
#64
Fat n slow

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,287

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3243 Post(s)
Liked 2,059 Times in 973 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
They are \$1000-1200 new right now, based on a 30sec search.
What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?

Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on.

When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel. Also, msrp was \$1300. You got em for \$900, but let's not pretend like you bought em at full msrp price.
https://bikerumor.com/new-zipp-303-s...ess-expensive/
Maybe not MSRP, but they can regularly found at that price.

As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs \$1335 with freight.

LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
02-27-24, 10:30 AM
#65
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,335
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4372 Post(s)
Liked 4,792 Times in 2,963 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
Maybe not MSRP, but they can regularly found at that price.

As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs \$1335 with freight.

LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
Given that hookless rims are genuinely cheaper to produce, it at least allows the manufacturer to price more competitively if necessary.

Zipp wheels are competitively priced, but for me the pressure tolerances are too marginal to consider them at any price.
02-27-24, 11:07 AM
#66
Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,910
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1899 Post(s)
Liked 623 Times in 427 Posts
Light Bicycle has a North American facility in British Columbia staffed by local employees. Their support is as good as any out there.

Manufacturing savings are not passed to the consumer. Nothing in the bicycle industry is priced based on production costs. A \$15k bike does not cost 2x as much to produce as a \$7.5k bike. Pricing is set by the marketing department based on retail considerations.

Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.

Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 11:10 AM.
02-27-24, 11:23 AM
#67
Senior Member

Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,951

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 725 Times in 436 Posts
Originally Posted by elcruxio
Would be interesting to know how much of an effect (if any) foam inserts have on rolling resistance. While they shouldn't directly interact with the tire, they do remove some of the air volume inside the tire.
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...ner#conclusion
02-27-24, 11:55 AM
#68
climber has-been

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,058

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3388 Post(s)
Liked 3,502 Times in 1,766 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Nobody wants to deal with the impracticality of tubulars, especially without a service car following behind. That’s why they are very close to being history. Even when they were popular in racing, many riders preferred to train on clinchers for easier roadside repair. Now that there is no performance advantage (I realise you are still in denial) there is no need to compromise on practicality.
Impractical? Absolutely yes.

No performance advantage? Well, I'm pretty sure there's still a weight advantage to tubular rim + tire. That could be worthwhile for a hill climb event. For any other type of riding, forget about it.

Originally Posted by Yan
Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
Any company that charges an inflated price for their product will be undercut by their competitors and go extinct.

Competition kills profits.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse

Last edited by terrymorse; 02-27-24 at 12:02 PM.
02-27-24, 11:56 AM
#69
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,335
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4372 Post(s)
Liked 4,792 Times in 2,963 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
Light Bicycle has a North American facility in British Columbia staffed by local employees. Their support is as good as any out there.

Manufacturing savings are not passed to the consumer. Nothing in the bicycle industry is priced based on production costs. A \$15k bike does not cost 2x as much to produce as a \$7.5k bike. Pricing is set by the marketing department based on retail considerations.

Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
It depends how competitive the market is. If something costs less to make, then there is more margin to play with. Of course they wouldn’t pass on production savings if they didn’t have to, but there appears to be plenty of competition. It certainly isn’t a monopoly.
02-27-24, 12:03 PM
#70
Senior Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,497
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1367 Post(s)
Liked 475 Times in 277 Posts
Vittoria Air-Liner Road Test | Bicycle Rolling Resistance

Again, the Vittoria testing.

Note the rolling resistance curves presented show that you lose fewer watts by inflating your tires to 100psi than at all the other lower pressures tested. So if hookless were to be counted as a performance road solution, then the system should have the ability to handle these pressures, plus a healthy safety margin.

And inserting a pool noodle into a tire as a backup in the event of a sudden blowout? I think we all have to step back and calmly face the facts as how truly dumb this really is.

This reminds me of the interview with the obviously exasperated head of Vittoria, who was complaining that pro teams that Vittoria did not sponsor were actually riding on his tubular tires - relabeled. Clincher and tubeless options are fine during the marketing campaign, and the team bikes show-and-tell events, but for the actual pro-level riding, you want to be on tubulars.

No pool noodles required.
02-27-24, 12:06 PM
#71
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,222

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Liked 559 Times in 446 Posts
A pair of BTLOS WARL44 wheels cost \$767, if you catch one of their free freight offers. They're 20-30 grams lighter than Zipp 303s and require no rim tape. That's what replaced my 303s wheels. I use 50-55 psi in mine, so pressure safety margin is quite ample.

https://btlos.com/all-road/ar-clinch...arbon-wheelset
02-27-24, 12:09 PM
#72
Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,910
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1899 Post(s)
Liked 623 Times in 427 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse
Any company that charges an inflated price for their product will be undercut by their competitors and go extinct.

Competition kills profits.
Not if they and their competitors are in a cartel.

That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.

And ironically the Chinese brands are still providing hooked. So much for hookless cheaper.

Originally Posted by PeteHski
It depends how competitive the market is. If something costs less to make, then there is more margin to play with. Of course they wouldn’t pass on production savings if they didn’t have to, but there appears to be plenty of competition. It certainly isn’t a monopoly.
I hear what you're saying, but the reality is that most manufacturers have jumped to hookless and all their wheels are as expensive as ever. They've collectively adopted this cost saving measure for themselves, and consumers are left in exactly the same position as before, except now with an arguably inferior product.

If it was the case that brands are selling both hooked and hookless versions of their wheels, and consumers have the option of saving money by choosing the hookless version, THAT would make sense. But that's not the case, is it? For example if you go to the Hunt website, their high end wheel is \$3,000 and it's hookless. Where's the money that I'm supposedly "saving"? Why can't I get a hooked version if I'm willing to pay more? Consumers have been conned, no matter how much the brands try to fluff and spin that hookless is "better".

Yeah, it's better. Better for themselves. Not better for us.

Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 12:26 PM.
02-27-24, 12:17 PM
#73
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,906

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3923 Post(s)
Liked 7,226 Times in 2,922 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Note the rolling resistance curves presented show that you lose fewer watts by inflating your tires to 100psi than at all the other lower pressures tested.
Only fools argue that "higher pressures are always faster" or "lower pressure are always faster."
Likes For tomato coupe:
02-27-24, 12:21 PM
#74
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,803
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6908 Post(s)
Liked 10,900 Times in 4,655 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
As has already been pointed out, you've got this precisely backwards.

Originally Posted by Yan
Not if they and their competitors are in a cartel.
If you think that the new bike industry is a cartel, then either you don't understand the definition of that word or you don't understand reality.
02-27-24, 12:22 PM
#75
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,906

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3923 Post(s)
Liked 7,226 Times in 2,922 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote
If you think that the new bike industry is a cartel, then either you don't understand the definition of that word or you don't understand reality.
It could be both ...
Likes For tomato coupe:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.