puddin' legs

Ok, I'm old. I started cycling in HS in the late 70's. The only time anyone has bumped my rear wheel has been intentionally to say 'hi' or during a race. Only once in thousands and thousands of miles over nearly three decades of training, paceline riding, in pairs or threes, stranger or friend etc... has anyone ran into my rear wheel and that was because a dog ran in front of us. I didn't go down and no gear was broken. Is there a risk? Sure, but I don't think it's any greater than being hit by lightning.

Having someone on your wheel at 20mph in the big scheme of life is not dangerous. Like others have said, the danger is to the rider doing the drafting. Sneaking up on you? Are you wearing head phones?

ovoleg

why cant yall just get along

Just don't draft anyone. No big deal. You dont gain that much anyways

danch

I wasn't justifying assault, just pointing out that legality and politeness are not correlated. I aim for considerate, not legal.

I'd never purposely blow mucus on anyone, but if I don't know you're there, you might get a surprise. I'll feel like a heel if it did happen, but I wouldn't feel completely responsible, either.

babysaph

I think it is easier to ride behind someone not in front so I always let them go ahead of me.

'nother

To be clear: That post was in response to skinnyone's assertion that I said wheels could touch at 3-5 feet -- which I did not.



Now that that's all cleared up (thanks, skinnyone: no hard feelin's): I don't disagree that there are emergency situations that could exhaust the 3-5 feet margin very quickly. However, I think the person following would have to have the iPod at full volume with the helmet on backwards and pulled down over the eyes while talking on the cell phone to not avoid a collision from that far back (as in the scenario the OP described). At 25 MPH I might be more inclined to see it your way, but not at 17. Anyway if I'm maintaining 3-5 feet off your wheel at 25 MPH, I think my handling skills are going to have to be pretty good to begin with -- honestly, how many total newbies with no skills are even able to hold your wheel (before you drop them like a bad habit)?

I've actually had things similar to what you describe happen to me on several occasions. People will follow on, and I'll sit up for a drink and slough off a few MPH in the process and soon discover there's someone back there. Yet "miraculously", I've never been hit from behind, even with closer margins. I guess we don't have as many of these suicide/I-can't-wait-to-put-my-skewer-in-your-$500-wheel/I-have-no-sense-of-self-preservation riders that you and EventServices seem to encounter.

I've also ridden on several half-organized group rides where no one discussed the rules/expectations for signaling/stopping, etc., and have followed on people's wheels pretty closely, only to have them stop suddenly -- with nary a signal or word out of their mouth, they just slammed on the brakes. Yet "somehow", I managed to avoid hitting them. Yes, even with car traffic in the next lane (though you can bet I didn't follow after that!). And my handling skills are nothing special, as far as I know. Or maybe I'm just extremely lucky.

But my guess is that the actual danger in the scenario described by the OP is much lower than it is perceived and made out to be. No, it's not "zero", but if you're looking to eliminate danger on rides, I can think of plenty of other much more dangerous issues to grouse about besides someone sitting half a bike length off your wheel.

goldbam

Well, I draft people for miles on my local trail and no one seems to mind. I normally draft people goin about 21 mph or more for about 15 miles. Then for time trial training, I turn around and having been accustomed to that speed, I go back without drafting.

Now from what I've learned, just like how aero bars and aero parts don't actually work until 23 mph +, drafting won't actually help you unless your about a foot away or less.

Floorit

Originally Posted by coclimberHow about this scenario?

Riding solo on a very popular route north out of Boulder on a weekend (ie: many bikers out this day), a guy in a full team kit on a tri bike passed me - slowly - but then more or less assumed the pace I was at... around 19-20 mph. I didn't really do anything; he assumed the "pulling" position, and I drafted for about 1 or 2 miles. Nothing was said, it just happened. Our routes diverged then, so I turned off, gave a quick "Thanks for the pull", and we exchanged waves. No big deal...

I think all the fuss about freeloading, danger, etc here is a tad overblown. I understand caution, that's fine. But all this hard core-ness, ego, etc is really foreign to my way of thinking. Go out, enjoy the road and the other bikers who are also out there to enjoy a ride. Freak out when something bad happens, not when people are just out being themselves, riding, etc. Seems unhealthy to carry around so much stress and attitude.

FWIW... my 2 cents





I'll second that, for goodness sakes just be polite and have a good stree free ride!!!

Cromulent

Yeah... riding three to five feet behind a person doesn't really give either rider much of a benefit.

I had a club/team guy pass me one day, look back, and say, "You look like you could use a wheel." We were going into a headwind, he was on a road bike and I was on my mtb. I was having a rough time. I said, "You bet." I hung on for about a mile and then he started to pull away. I yelled, "Thanks! Have a good ride." Not one other word passed between us.

The guy didn't know me. He just offered a wheel, and I took it. It was great because I was dying. I try and do the same for others. Some want a wheel, some don't.

The roads are open to everyone. If you and I are going the same way at roughly the same speed at the same time... that's great. If you want to chat or whatever... perfect. If you don't want a new buddy for the next fifteen minutes to whenever... fantastic. If I don't want a new buddy, that should be okay too.

Just say 'hi' or something so I know you're there. I don't usually hear much other than the wind and cars. I don't like mirrors. And I haven't yet had my third eye grafted to the back of my head.

skinnyone

I think I agree that if you are slow, ie < 20 MPH, there isnt a big risk from a guy drafting behind you... I was guided by the horror stories I read and a few group rides which were squirrely and dangerous...

From what I have gleaned the past few months, guys like EventServices(cat2 i think) tend to go fast and they have had bad experiences in the past and they mean no disrespect if they dont want someone to wheelsuck.. They are usually in a training regimen which they stick to...

All said a little bit of courtsey goes a long way... Even a smile when somebody looks back to see if you are drafting...

I am going to go ride my bike now...

[nother... no problem... likewise, no hard feelings..]

1955

Pulling up behind me and drafting without saying anything is kind of like sitting in a restaurant and having someone sitting down next to you without asking. We may have a great conversation; on the other hand I may no share anything in common with this person and feel very uncomfortable. I personally feel that sucking on some ones wheel without announcing yourself if rude. Also I launch a snot rocked about every minute or so, so my advice when you pull up behind me is to announce yourself or get covered in snot. This did happen once and the guy came around me just shaking his head...oh well.

1955

I am a little hard of hearing and going into the wind (always) I hear very little behind me, so if someone snuck up behind me I usually only know they're there when they shift or run over something. So no, you don't have to be wearing headphones to not hear someone on your tail. There are lots of different people out there on bikes.

puddin' legs

"I was guided by the horror stories I read and a few group rides which were squirrely and dangerous... "

Group rides are a different beast. They're probably one of the most dangerous things we do on a bike. The horror stories about single riders or a very small group are just that...stories. The only exception to this is if they are on their aero bars while following. That's easy to remedy, you just ask them to not ride on them. And I agree with the post above about 25mph drafting. Anyone who can hold a wheel in a small group of 5 or fewer riders over more than a handful of miles is probably not going to be an issue at all. Sharing the road with large vehicles is a much much bigger safety issue. I'd still like to hear about anyone who's actually had something bad happen to them while they were pulling that was caused by the person sitting in that resulted in broken gear or a crash.

dekalbSTEEL

you might want to see a doctor about that!

CastIron

I don't mind if you ride with me in some fashion, hell the more the better in some respects, but drafting? Without asking? GET THE HELL OFF MY WHEEL! There are plenty of poorly driven city busses in my neck of the woods. Go draft them. The pull is simply amazing.

Mr_Super_Socks

One thing I have noticed re: the safety issue is that a number of posts suggest that it is unsafe to have someone behind you unannounced, but somehow, it's magically ok if they say, "hey, there is a dude - me - 3 to five feet back. ok?" Don't the exact same safety issues arise in that situation? In a panic stop at 20mph, it doesn't really matter if I know there are twenty guys behind me, does it? that's why it's called "panic."

The way I read all the posts, the only real objection is that some people think it's rude - they feel like their personal space is being invaded or like someone is "cheating" by getting an unfair advantage. It's just a personal preference, like not wanting people stand too close to you in line at the ATM or walking down the street. Some people are fine with close contact with strange human beings. I am. I don't care if people draft. I actually like it - it's an acknowledgement that I am stronger - yeah!

Mr_Super_Socks

I don't get this. What the hell is wrong with sitting next to someone in a restaurant? or a diner or bar? Or anywhere: subway, bus depot, airplane, laundromat, doctor's waiting room, dmv, interview, movie theater, walking to work, schoolroom, nurse's office, etc.

The world is full of other people and you may have to interact with some of them in the course of your routine. I don't think it's reasonable to assume you can reserve all the seats (and space) around you to prevent all human interaction. Plus, some of us are actually very nice and one day we may become friends!

I know this has very little to do with the OP, but I really find this statement off the wall.

DocRay

um, sorry, we're talking about cycling here, not power-walking.

DocRay

Here's the local ediquette:

If you approach another rider and draft, you had better lead within 500m for a turn out front. If you are being drafted without the other rider leading, pull hard to the right and let him go out front, if he doesn't, call him an a-hole, because that's what he is.

BTW, in the old days of italian cycling, not leading on the draft was rewarded with a pump in the spokes. Doesn't work to well with Co2 cartriges.

1955

Sorry, but I wasn't very clear here, I was NOT talking about sitting at the bar where you expect someone will sit next to you, I was referring to a booth where you expect to be alone. I'm fine with someone coming up and saying "Hi" mine if I ride along with you, but I still think it's rude to impose yourself on others, maybe you ought to rethink how you are around others, maybe you just don't take hints very well. Whether you "get it" or not doesn't really concern me there will always be rude people out there that just don't get it, you just may be one of them.

danch

I think the "It's not safe." and the "Just let me know." Are two different camps. Although, it is safer to know - then I can make allowances and not have a normal stop turn into a rear-ending.

danch

The world is full of other people and various people have different desires for privacy and space. Just be considerate. If you're really all that nice, you'll understand. Or at least accomodate.

noisebeam

Depends where you live. Some places both in different parts of the US and in different countries where restaurants, cafes, breakfast, lunch or dinner, etc. are busy it is expected to share booths - especially if you singly our doubly sit in four spot booth.

I always expect to share a road. So where is the magic distance expected for your personal space on a shared road? 3', 6', 10' 20'?

Al

CastIron

Is simple courtesy really so difficult? Really, it's the open road, not a confined space like a bus or some such. If you're going to come into my space and be there for a bit why not make nice instead of leaving me to divine the intent of someone's poor social skills? It's more akin to taking the urinal right next to me when there are five others to choose from. It's just not right.

viter

1st, to the OP - if he still has any interest in this thread: Draft me? go ahead. Don't say "hi"? no problem. Feel a sense of civic duty and want to take your turn at the front? great. Don't? no skin off my back.

2nd, my opinion on a few issues that have come up on this thread:
- "sneaking up": Any person operating any type of vehicle on public roads should be aware of what is behind him at all times. That being said, it's always the responsibility of the vehicle in the rear to control his speed, or if you want to get cycling specific, to protect his front wheel.

- "don't draft me" sentiment: That's just road riding. Free tip - if it bothers you that much, get a hybrid; i guarantee no self respecting roadie will draft a hybrid.

- "i don't like that person that's drafting me because...": Well then, it's up to you to drop them. Spitting / snottballs are not an option. If you use these "techniques" expect the same response as you would get from spitting / snottballing someone in any other situation, ie. there's a good chance it's going to get ugly.

1955

Heck no, it helps me keep my girlie figure. I have allergies and whem I ride or ice skate my nose runs, that's just how my body works.

When I ride with my friends I wait until my pull is over and when I get to the back I let em rip.