Ode to Ti
05-03-06 | 02:17 PM
#51
Certifiable Bike "Expert"
Joined: May 2005
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Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice.
05-03-06 | 02:42 PM
#52
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 156
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"Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice."
While this may often be true, I can say that I have had at least one person experience to the contrary. In 2000, I was shopping for a decent bike and test rode several. The two that contrasted most strongly were a Waterford 631 and a Cannondale. I rode the exact same route and I think they used similar or identical wheels. Both were from the same shop and the same tech set up both bikes, so I suspect that the tires were similarly inflated.
The Waterford was smooth, but I could easily get the chain to rub the front der. in the highest gears by standing and mashing on the pedals. On the Cannondale, I felt every surface ripple on the road. However, I could not get the chain to rub at all. I strongly believe that these two bike frames really did have easily detected differences in ride.
P.S., the end of the story was like the 3 bears, steel was too flexy, alu. was too harsh, and CF was just right, so I got a Trek 5200 ;-)
Back to the OP, I now have a Ritchey Breakaway Ti/Carbon bike. The frame has carbon stays and a carbon fork. The rest is Ti. It does not feel like my Trek 5200 at all. It feels much more "lively" and does not have that numb feeling that many CF frames have. On the other hand, when riding over roads with lots of "texture" I get far more road buzz on the Ti/carbon bike than with the CF bike. Overall, I much prefer the Ti/carbon, but it is not really a fair comparison as the Ritchey came with much more advanced and higher grade components. The Ritchey wheels alone are probably at least a pound lighter than the old Rolf wheels on the Trek. Also, the Trek had an Ultegra 9 group while the Ritchey has the latest DA 10 group. I'm sure if I put all the same components on the Trek, it would be a much more even contest. However, I won't be updating the Trek as I sold it once I started riding the Ritchey. The Ritchey just feels so good, I decided I didn't need any other road bikes
Ira
While this may often be true, I can say that I have had at least one person experience to the contrary. In 2000, I was shopping for a decent bike and test rode several. The two that contrasted most strongly were a Waterford 631 and a Cannondale. I rode the exact same route and I think they used similar or identical wheels. Both were from the same shop and the same tech set up both bikes, so I suspect that the tires were similarly inflated.
The Waterford was smooth, but I could easily get the chain to rub the front der. in the highest gears by standing and mashing on the pedals. On the Cannondale, I felt every surface ripple on the road. However, I could not get the chain to rub at all. I strongly believe that these two bike frames really did have easily detected differences in ride.
P.S., the end of the story was like the 3 bears, steel was too flexy, alu. was too harsh, and CF was just right, so I got a Trek 5200 ;-)
Back to the OP, I now have a Ritchey Breakaway Ti/Carbon bike. The frame has carbon stays and a carbon fork. The rest is Ti. It does not feel like my Trek 5200 at all. It feels much more "lively" and does not have that numb feeling that many CF frames have. On the other hand, when riding over roads with lots of "texture" I get far more road buzz on the Ti/carbon bike than with the CF bike. Overall, I much prefer the Ti/carbon, but it is not really a fair comparison as the Ritchey came with much more advanced and higher grade components. The Ritchey wheels alone are probably at least a pound lighter than the old Rolf wheels on the Trek. Also, the Trek had an Ultegra 9 group while the Ritchey has the latest DA 10 group. I'm sure if I put all the same components on the Trek, it would be a much more even contest. However, I won't be updating the Trek as I sold it once I started riding the Ritchey. The Ritchey just feels so good, I decided I didn't need any other road bikes
Ira
05-03-06 | 04:07 PM
#53
Banned.
Joined: Nov 2004
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that Ibis is an brilliant frame, and Ibis is a much missed company (yes, I know they're sorta "back" but they aren't doing the same thing as before)--I would guess it's more Ibis, than Titanium, that makes the frame so nice
there's plenty of crappy Ti frames out there--and plenty of brilliant aluminum frames
I would rather have a well done aluminum frame (ie Pegoretti Love#3, Cannondale, Ridley, etc etc) than a crappy Ti frame
the difference between builders, their techniques and quality of construction is where significant differences lie
there's plenty of crappy Ti frames out there--and plenty of brilliant aluminum frames
I would rather have a well done aluminum frame (ie Pegoretti Love#3, Cannondale, Ridley, etc etc) than a crappy Ti frame
the difference between builders, their techniques and quality of construction is where significant differences lie
05-03-06 | 05:21 PM
#54
Just Do It !
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 852
Likes: 0
From: United States
Bikes: Litespeed Ti, Trek Carbon.
Originally Posted by GuitarWizard
This is why I love my OCLV Trek.....has unbelievable road dampening abilities, it's stiff where it needs to be but doesn't beat the crap out of you, and handles great. It just gives an overall great ride. It's technically a "race bike", but it has all-day ride comfort. Best of both worlds, IMO.
Mine "sings" to me as well.....on those rare days when I actually get a tailwind and can hear the drivetrain and wheels whirring along at 26+ mph, with no interruptions from the frame making any noise (since carbon is a non-ferrous material). Took me a bit at first to get used to it....and like many others, I thought it "felt dead" at first, but then I learned to embrace it, and now I love it.
I would really like to try a Ti bike someday though, as it's the only frame material I haven't ridden on yet.
Mine "sings" to me as well.....on those rare days when I actually get a tailwind and can hear the drivetrain and wheels whirring along at 26+ mph, with no interruptions from the frame making any noise (since carbon is a non-ferrous material). Took me a bit at first to get used to it....and like many others, I thought it "felt dead" at first, but then I learned to embrace it, and now I love it.
I would really like to try a Ti bike someday though, as it's the only frame material I haven't ridden on yet.
. You cant beat ti, 4 years later and she looks like the day I bought her.
05-03-06 | 05:21 PM
#55
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,233
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Originally Posted by irablumberg
"Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice."
While this may often be true, I can say that I have had at least one person experience to the contrary. In 2000, I was shopping for a decent bike and test rode several. The two that contrasted most strongly were a Waterford 631 and a Cannondale. I rode the exact same route and I think they used similar or identical wheels. Both were from the same shop and the same tech set up both bikes, so I suspect that the tires were similarly inflated.
The Waterford was smooth, but I could easily get the chain to rub the front der. in the highest gears by standing and mashing on the pedals. On the Cannondale, I felt every surface ripple on the road. However, I could not get the chain to rub at all. I strongly believe that these two bike frames really did have easily detected differences in ride.
P.S., the end of the story was like the 3 bears, steel was too flexy, alu. was too harsh, and CF was just right, so I got a Trek 5200 ;-)
Back to the OP, I now have a Ritchey Breakaway Ti/Carbon bike. The frame has carbon stays and a carbon fork. The rest is Ti. It does not feel like my Trek 5200 at all. It feels much more "lively" and does not have that numb feeling that many CF frames have. On the other hand, when riding over roads with lots of "texture" I get far more road buzz on the Ti/carbon bike than with the CF bike. Overall, I much prefer the Ti/carbon, but it is not really a fair comparison as the Ritchey came with much more advanced and higher grade components. The Ritchey wheels alone are probably at least a pound lighter than the old Rolf wheels on the Trek. Also, the Trek had an Ultegra 9 group while the Ritchey has the latest DA 10 group. I'm sure if I put all the same components on the Trek, it would be a much more even contest. However, I won't be updating the Trek as I sold it once I started riding the Ritchey. The Ritchey just feels so good, I decided I didn't need any other road bikes
Ira
While this may often be true, I can say that I have had at least one person experience to the contrary. In 2000, I was shopping for a decent bike and test rode several. The two that contrasted most strongly were a Waterford 631 and a Cannondale. I rode the exact same route and I think they used similar or identical wheels. Both were from the same shop and the same tech set up both bikes, so I suspect that the tires were similarly inflated.
The Waterford was smooth, but I could easily get the chain to rub the front der. in the highest gears by standing and mashing on the pedals. On the Cannondale, I felt every surface ripple on the road. However, I could not get the chain to rub at all. I strongly believe that these two bike frames really did have easily detected differences in ride.
P.S., the end of the story was like the 3 bears, steel was too flexy, alu. was too harsh, and CF was just right, so I got a Trek 5200 ;-)
Back to the OP, I now have a Ritchey Breakaway Ti/Carbon bike. The frame has carbon stays and a carbon fork. The rest is Ti. It does not feel like my Trek 5200 at all. It feels much more "lively" and does not have that numb feeling that many CF frames have. On the other hand, when riding over roads with lots of "texture" I get far more road buzz on the Ti/carbon bike than with the CF bike. Overall, I much prefer the Ti/carbon, but it is not really a fair comparison as the Ritchey came with much more advanced and higher grade components. The Ritchey wheels alone are probably at least a pound lighter than the old Rolf wheels on the Trek. Also, the Trek had an Ultegra 9 group while the Ritchey has the latest DA 10 group. I'm sure if I put all the same components on the Trek, it would be a much more even contest. However, I won't be updating the Trek as I sold it once I started riding the Ritchey. The Ritchey just feels so good, I decided I didn't need any other road bikes
Ira
05-03-06 | 05:25 PM
#56
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,233
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Originally Posted by Thylacine
Meh, Carbon fiber is Tupperware! If you don't dig it out of the ground and make a frame out of it, it's worthless 
05-03-06 | 05:39 PM
#57
Baby it's cold outside...
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,310
Likes: 1
From: SK, Canada
Bikes: Trek 5000, Rocky Mountain Wedge, GT Karakoram K2, Litespeed Tuscany
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Originally Posted by Thylacine
Meh, Carbon fiber is Tupperware! If you don't dig it out of the ground and make a frame out of it, it's worthless
Meh, Carbon fiber is Tupperware! If you don't dig it out of the ground and make a frame out of it, it's worthless
I believe graphite comes from the ground.
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-Trek 5000* -Project Litespeed* -The Italian Job* -Rocky Wedge* -The Canadian Connection*
-Trek 5000* -Project Litespeed* -The Italian Job* -Rocky Wedge* -The Canadian Connection*
05-03-06 | 06:03 PM
#58
Administrator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 34,329
Likes: 8,481
From: Hudson Valley, NY
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Originally Posted by ViperZ
And Titanium is mined from where... Outerspace?
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05-03-06 | 06:23 PM
#60
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 156
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I travel with my bike from time to time, and have been interested in the Ritchie Breakaway for that reason. One major hesitation with the Ritchey Ti Cf bike though is the CF stays. One thing I like about packing my Merlin is no worries about scratching paint or clear coat. I don't understand why Ritchie didn't make a full Ti breakaway, so you don't have to worrry about scratching the CF stays in transit.
Note that Ritchey does make an all ti breakaway CX frame, but it is quite a bit heavier. You can get S&S coupled ti frames from DEAN and Serotta as well. Each of these can be specified either all ti or ti and CF. The DEAN frames are not too expensive, but the Serottas are quite stiff (price, I don't know about the ride ;-)
Ira
05-03-06 | 08:34 PM
#61
Thread Starter
Peloton Shelter Dog
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 90,508
Likes: 32
From: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB
Originally Posted by Serpico
that Ibis is an brilliant frame, and Ibis is a much missed company (yes, I know they're sorta "back" but they aren't doing the same thing as before)--I would guess it's more Ibis, than Titanium, that makes the frame so nice
there's plenty of crappy Ti frames out there--and plenty of brilliant aluminum frames
I would rather have a well done aluminum frame (ie Pegoretti Love#3, Cannondale, Ridley, etc etc) than a crappy Ti frame
the difference between builders, their techniques and quality of construction is where significant differences lie
there's plenty of crappy Ti frames out there--and plenty of brilliant aluminum frames
I would rather have a well done aluminum frame (ie Pegoretti Love#3, Cannondale, Ridley, etc etc) than a crappy Ti frame
the difference between builders, their techniques and quality of construction is where significant differences lie
That is a good point I suppose. Every magazine review I ever came across on the Ibis Ti Road was rather ecstatic. So it may be one of the best Ti frames ever - it certainly blew away the old Merlin I had, a perfectly reputable Ti frame maker and certainly a wonderful bicycle in its own right. But it wasn't like the Ibis.
Ibis IS back in business- making a CF road frame and a CF dual suspension MTB bike - and their new bikes look pretty damn trick to me. That Scott Nicol is one helluva bike guru to be sure. I still recall his bike designs from the early 90's. He was LIGHT YEARS ahead of just about anyone else out there. Maybe Serotta was in his league. Maybe not.
05-04-06 | 03:51 AM
#62
Thread Starter
Peloton Shelter Dog
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 90,508
Likes: 32
From: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB
By the way the enthusiasm of Ti bike lovers seems to be on another level - I've never really experienced that kind of fanatical devotion from Alu or CF owners. Maybe steel bike owners. But Ti does tend to foster a rather faithful following.
All you skeptics would probably have to OWN a Ti bike for a while (not just test ride one) to get the picture.
All you skeptics would probably have to OWN a Ti bike for a while (not just test ride one) to get the picture.
05-04-06 | 07:06 AM
#63
Used to be a climber..
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,067
Likes: 193
From: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: 2021 Merlin Sandstone, 2016 Ridley Fenix SL, 2020 Trek Emonda ALR (rim brake), Trek Roscoe 9
Originally Posted by patentcad
All you skeptics would probably have to OWN a Ti bike for a while (not just test ride one) to get the picture.
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2016 Trek 520 (54cm) touring bike for sale - never ridden. Message me for photos/details.
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05-04-06 | 09:03 AM
#64
Thread Starter
Peloton Shelter Dog
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 90,508
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From: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB
Originally Posted by GuitarWizard
I keep throwing out the offer from time to time for someone to donate a Ti bike so I can do an extensive long-term test on one compared to my Trek, but nobody seems to be willing to buy me a bike.
04-04-07 | 06:10 PM
#65
IF/Parlee/Sachs/Legend ST
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
From: East Coast
Bikes: Parlee, Richard Sachs, Serotta Legend, IF Crown Jewel (2), IF Planet Cross, Serotta CSI (2)
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
IMHO, a Ti frame with CF seat stays defeats the one biggest remaining advantage of having a Ti frame-- durability. Today, its possible to build a CF frame that is lighter than virtually any Ti frame, stiffer laterally, and as vetically compliant for comfort. So the best reason to buy a Ti frame today is that it is very durable, will survive crashes that would likely destroy a CF frame, and cosmetically will retain its appearance through years of use and abuse. By adding CF into the frame, you suddenly have a frame that is no more durable than a CF frame, and you've lost the advantage of a Ti frame in the first place.
something to think about....
04-04-07 | 07:27 PM
#66
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
Likes: 0
From: Perth, W.A.
Originally Posted by raven1
I am considering the Serotta Fierte, a stock frame that lists for a mere $1895 (hint, hint for those who have said they can't afford Ti). It comes in both a Ti seatstay model or a carbon seatstay model. Somehow I need to find a LBS that has both in stock and in my size so I can compare.
https://www.serotta.com/pages/fierte_Ti.html
https://www.serotta.com/pages/fierte_Ti.html
04-04-07 | 07:38 PM
#67
love my ti IF.
they took my pages long disertation on what i was looking for and nailed it. ride quality, climbing, 'stiffness' (whatever that is...)
they took my pages long disertation on what i was looking for and nailed it. ride quality, climbing, 'stiffness' (whatever that is...)
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So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
04-04-07 | 08:08 PM
#68
Originally Posted by Thylacine
Meh, Carbon fiber is Tupperware! If you don't dig it out of the ground and make a frame out of it, it's worthless
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04-04-07 | 09:44 PM
#69
Senior Member
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Originally Posted by Allerge99
I have ridden a Litespeed Classic for the last 8 years and last Wednesday crashed in a crit so I picked up a new Merlin Cielo because I bent the frame on the Classic. The Cielo is a Ti lugged carbon tubed bike. It is just as lively as a Ti bike but dampens like carbon and is so much stiffer then my litespeed. I love the thing. I think I will never go back to a full Ti bike for a everyday ride and will stay with the material blend do to the fact you get the best characteristics of both of them.
I rode a chromoly frame before the litespeed and have ridden a Trek postal bike from about 5 years ago and to date this new Merlin is the best ride and feel for a everday bike that I have found. I wasn't too fond of the full carbon feel. To me this feels more like my old chromoly frame but a heck of a lot stiffer.
I rode a chromoly frame before the litespeed and have ridden a Trek postal bike from about 5 years ago and to date this new Merlin is the best ride and feel for a everday bike that I have found. I wasn't too fond of the full carbon feel. To me this feels more like my old chromoly frame but a heck of a lot stiffer.
04-05-07 | 09:41 AM
#70
Knowing's half the battle
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,119
Likes: 3
From: Omaha, NE
Bikes: 2009 Cannondale CAAD9 BB30, SRAM Red, Fulcrum Racing 3s
Let me pay homage to the Ti gods:
04-05-07 | 09:30 PM
#72
Cardiac Case
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,893
Likes: 3
From: Dropped... about 5 miles back...
Bikes: Trek, Cannondale, Litespeed, Lynskey
Ramjm -
Geeze!
The Titanium Shrine must be located at your house.
Geeze!
The Titanium Shrine must be located at your house.
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04-06-07 | 03:49 AM
#73
Just Do It !
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 852
Likes: 0
From: United States
Bikes: Litespeed Ti, Trek Carbon.
Originally Posted by GuitarWizard
This is why I love my OCLV Trek.....has unbelievable road dampening abilities, it's stiff where it needs to be but doesn't beat the crap out of you, and handles great. It just gives an overall great ride. It's technically a "race bike", but it has all-day ride comfort. Best of both worlds, IMO.
Mine "sings" to me as well.....on those rare days when I actually get a tailwind and can hear the drivetrain and wheels whirring along at 26+ mph, with no interruptions from the frame making any noise (since carbon is a non-ferrous material). Took me a bit at first to get used to it....and like many others, I thought it "felt dead" at first, but then I learned to embrace it, and now I love it.
I would really like to try a Ti bike someday though, as it's the only frame material I haven't ridden on yet.
Mine "sings" to me as well.....on those rare days when I actually get a tailwind and can hear the drivetrain and wheels whirring along at 26+ mph, with no interruptions from the frame making any noise (since carbon is a non-ferrous material). Took me a bit at first to get used to it....and like many others, I thought it "felt dead" at first, but then I learned to embrace it, and now I love it.
I would really like to try a Ti bike someday though, as it's the only frame material I haven't ridden on yet.
Last edited by VeganRider; 04-06-07 at 04:15 AM.
04-06-07 | 05:05 AM
#74
Used to be a climber..
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,067
Likes: 193
From: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: 2021 Merlin Sandstone, 2016 Ridley Fenix SL, 2020 Trek Emonda ALR (rim brake), Trek Roscoe 9
Originally Posted by patentcad
Sorry GW, you'll just have to take the plunge. I see you're all-Trek. Nice enough bikes, but how about a little variety in your cycling??
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2016 Trek 520 (54cm) touring bike for sale - never ridden. Message me for photos/details.
2016 Trek 520 (54cm) touring bike for sale - never ridden. Message me for photos/details.
04-06-07 | 05:13 AM
#75
Used to be a climber..
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,067
Likes: 193
From: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: 2021 Merlin Sandstone, 2016 Ridley Fenix SL, 2020 Trek Emonda ALR (rim brake), Trek Roscoe 9
Originally Posted by VeganRider
This is an ode to ti, not plastic...
To put things in perspective, I have a rather new OCLV Trek too, but was hit head on this New Year's Eve on my much older titanium Litespeed. Was off work all winter with broken bones and not enough money to fix her, so.... I TOOK PARTS OFF THE OCLV to get the Litespeed back together. That says it all.
I'm sure I'll get a titanium bike at some point (probably an Independent Fabrication), but I'm not really in a rush.
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2016 Trek 520 (54cm) touring bike for sale - never ridden. Message me for photos/details.
2016 Trek 520 (54cm) touring bike for sale - never ridden. Message me for photos/details.