That's the point - if you need an unusually short stem for proper fit, you are making a compromise and you would most likely be better served with a different frame geometry. Whether or not that's a financially viable option doesn't make it any less true. The same goes for exceptionally long stems, extreme setback seat posts or saddles slammed forward on zero-setback posts.

:thumb: if only we could learn not to tinker with things that are fine. Guess that is part of the rider requirements for the sport; OCD.

So the frame, the most expensive variable, should be changed so that the least expensive variable, the stem, can match a norm, and in fact not be a variable?

Nope. The frame, the most expensive variable, should be changed so that fit and handling, the most important variables, are both optimal. As I said in a previous post that you may have skipped, road bicycles tend to handle and track best with a certain front to back balance that typically cannot be achieved with a short stem. That's why, as you may have noticed, I wrote "if you need an unusually short stem for proper fit..." - the meaning being that while it's certainly possible to ride a, say, 58-60cm frame with a, say, 90-100mm stem, such a combination points to a fit problem that would most likely be best solved with a different geometry frame.

Speaking of frame price, I did also write "Whether or not that's a financially viable option..." Come to think of it, all that's needed to understand what I meant to say is right there in the original post, but I guess that's not always enough.

Spend the time to learn what frame fits (size and riding style) before buying the frame. If you still go out a buy something that does not fit and then put stupid looking sub optimal parts on it to make it work, do not post it in here and be offended when the stupid is pointed out.

Sorry, but this is wrong. Stem length is only one part of handling, and where your hands are is what matters. Short and shallow bars put your hands in different positions than traditional bars, so to say you can tell fit is wrong by looking solely at stem length is obtuse.

I did read that in your first post. To say a frame should be designed around stem length and seat post set back is wrong, regardless of financial viability.

Herbie, I agree with you, and I am by no means offended (nor have I posted any of my bikes :D), and I think I have told you often that your Guru is the best looking bike on the forum, IMO. All I have been trying to say is that there is no way to know if a short stem is sub optimal or not when people don't fall into the traditional body mold. That doesn't seem like a hard point to grasp, but apparently I should stop trying to make it. Got it.

No worries, I get a little excited about bike fit I suppose. Getting a good fit made a big difference for me. Finding a frame that fits can be hard for some people and custom is $$$. There are things out there that let you search for stock frames that will work best for a given fit.

http://www.bicyclefitguru.com/featur...inder-service/

Oh, come on. Cherry picking and quote mining, woo-hoo!

Of course handlebar reach would be taken into account when looking at stem length, as well as shifter hood shape and position on the handlebar. I guess I have to explicitly state every little detail and then hope you won't try to take it out of context. When I said, repeated and then underlined the key word - "unusually", in "unusually short" - this should, for someone not trying to rip apart every technicality in order to "win" in an argument, mean that the stem is unusually short for the bicycle at hand, including frame size, handlebar reach, hood shape, etc, etc.

No, I did not say a frame should be designed around a particular stem and seat post and nothing else taken into account. The whole bicycle should be looked at as a system. You can't just ignore the effect that stem length, among other factors, has on the whole system and then just use whatever parts are necessary to get the contact points into a good ergonomic position. Yes, the contact points should be in the good ergonomic position, but the whole system should also be set up to function as close to optimal as possible. Proper frame size and geometry is a part of this and it cannot be ignored. Extreme adjustments needed to get a proper position on a particular frame are a sign of said frame's size and geometry not being optimal for the person. BTW, Eddy Merckx insisted his frames be designed to fit right with a 130mm stem - not because he thought it looked cool, but because he felt that provided the best overall performance. This is not to say that 130mm is the perfect stem length because Eddy said so, but to point that there is such thing as optimal stem length for a particular frame geometry.

People who need a short stem to ride a particular frame would in most cases be better served with a different frame geometry. Their whole riding experience would be better and that has nothing to do with what the bicycle looks like. That statement will stay true no matter what shape you try to bend it into.

[MENTION=208545]Fiery[/MENTION], I am neither "cherry picking" or "quote mining", nor do I care to "win" an argument.

When you say an "unusually short" stem belies poor fit, I can see the point and don't disagree. When you further say 90-100mm on 58-60 cm frame is "unusually short", I do disagree. By this definition, would 110-120mm be "short", and 130mm the only appropriate "normal" stem length? The combination of 100 mm and traditional bars may be perfectly valid, depending on whether someone is optimizing their fit in the drops, or on the hoods. But your definition says this is a poor frame selection and "unusually short". If you had said an MTB stem, or a 70mm, or a riser stem, I would have not said a word, as I would agree.

I will also say that I have never seen an adjustable angle stem used in any manner other than to mangle any sense of normal in a fit. :D

This is the first time I've owned a bike that I think is worthy of posting in the Hot r Not thread.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=350272

This is my new (to me) 2000 Trek 5200 USPS team colored bike. It has Ultegra shift/brake levers, brake calipers, standard double cranks, 9 speed cassette, and front derailleur; a Dura Ace rear derailleur; Look Keo Classic pedals; Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels, Bontrager Race X Lite CF Blade bars, Race Lite stem, and Race Lite CF seat post; and a Specialized saddle.

The pic was taken using Instagram.

Not.

Go Lance!

Yeah, it totally is Lance-ish. However, for the price I paid for it, I'll happily ride a Lance-mobile. :D

less talky talky...

more pictures

More nonsense and rubbish. Have any real data to back up your Internet bluster? With an infinite number of body types / dimensions along with a myriad of frame geometries making a blanket statement regarding what an appropriate stem length should be is ludicrous. In addition, while Eddy M is one of the best cyclists of all time road bike geometries have changed significantly since his heyday so inferring a 130mm stem is the sweet spot (because Eddy used one) is ridiculous.

Sorry, I started talking without paying my entry fee. So to show I'm not a total tool, here ya go:

Note: the white on the downtube and seatstays is reflective black tape. Since it is already dark in the northeast, I had to use a flash.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7446/1...42246b8e_z.jpg

Rockin the SS. I like it. What type of pedals do u have on your rig?

Look Quartz. Dare I say it, they are... MTB... gasp... pedals. :D

I run SPD's on my road bike commuter, ain't no thang. :)

Same here!
:thumb:

To make it clear again, just in case - I'm not saying a short stem necessarily means poor ergonomic fit, just not the optimal setup.

A good approximation is that, when looked from the side, a rider's hands should be straight above or out in front of the front hub, when in the preferred hand position. A typical modern handlebar has 75-85mm horisontal reach, and a typical preferred hand position is on the hoods. In such a typical case, a 58-60 size frame will typically work best with a 120-140mm stem; 110mm will be pushing it, 100 and below will be a compromise. Far from saying that the bicycle will be unridable, it simply won't perform the way it was designed to, especially when it comes to cornering. Is this OK?


Oh, for crying out loud. Reading comprehension, where did it go?

There's a myriad road racing bicycles in production at the moment, but their geometries really don't vary that much, especially when it comes to handling. Even when the variations in handling geometry are taken into account, a road racing bicycle will always need a certain front to back weight distribution to perform at its best - and the problem is typically getting enough weight on the front wheel. Yes, there's more than one way to change the weight distribution, such as lengthening the chain stays, but good luck trying to find such a frame without going custom. Even if you do find one, you've done exactly what I'm talking about - you've picked the appropriate geometry to suit your fit needs in the best way.

And yes, there is indeed an infinite number of body types and proportions, but that just means that not everybody will be able to achieve an optimal ergonomic fit that will also provide optimal performance on just any frame they happen to like. Somebody will need a taller frame, somebody will need a longer frame, and somebody will need to go custom, if they want the best fit and the best performance.

Eddy Merckx example is just that, an example, not evidence that 130mm is some Holy Grail perfect stem length no matter what the frame size or geometry - I actually explicitly stated this was so in the very post you quoted.

Spot on! I do apologize. I have actually made a couple of changes to the bike recently that might warrant a new entry, though it's still just a lowly triple with old Shimano shifters with exposed cables. I'll do my best to provide a picture in the following days.

I dunno if single speeds set up for commuting photographed in the dark will score many hots, but it looks good to me... and it looks like we ride bikes close to the same set up / size.:)

Best way to confirm that would be to let me borrow the newly rebuilt Guru (Flyte, right?) :D

You must be crying a river. Like I said take it like man, this is the Hot r Not thread. If I posted my bike on here and gotten a not, so what. I live on and ride another day. Wouldn't matter if you put on your Jets, it would still be a NOT. Go ahead and put it on and repost....