pacificaslim

Huh? The ankle being back up so that the toe is down 20 degrees by the bottom of the stroke that I referenced directly contradicts what you have posted here. You said:
Compare that to the illustration above.

ridethecliche

Hm, I pedal toe down also. It feels more natural for me. I'm going to ask my coach about pedaling heel down.

I might have to lower my saddle a bit if I want to do that though. I'm not really all that worried about it.

rizz

Excellent kit (jersey, bibs and shoes)! So what team are we on?



And I pedal toe-down more than I probably should. Gives me the wicked calves that all the women love.

pacificaslim

These guys seem to like toe down at the bottom as well:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/newsphoto...0032424_1_full

roadwarrior

Just like very other sport, there's a learned technique. However, in this sport few bother to learn what you just learned. They just sort of pedal and muscle the bike.

Your foot will drop to the bottom...if you pull, which is what you are basically describing, now you are using more of the circle. Presto...more power. Me...I am pulling from about the 4 o'clock position.

Think of it another way...try to visualize the bottom of your foot parallel to the ground the whole way around. It won't be that way, but you'll start pulling backward more...the old adage about scraping mud off your shoe. I can't get the mud off the back of the shoe if my toe is the only part that touches the ground. Try it. Try pulling with your toe downward. Then with your foot more level to the ground.

When I am standing, my heel comes up more. I can get more pull that way. Look at a video of Lance climbing at those high RPM's.

Most people just push downward and that's it.

There is a new DVD series out by Joe Friel. One of the parts is on pedaling technique. There are a lot of folks that buy tons of expensvie equipment and never spend time on their technique. This is the time of year to do that.

Ride fast!

roadwarrior

Lance's foot is parallel to the ground.

Note comments above^^^

Pantani pedaled with his toes down. It worked for him. His style was pretty unique.

roadwarrior

Last (bottom) photo looks like your knee is inside of your elbow, which is usually an indicator of the bike being a bit too short...and your seat (as has already been mentioned) needs to come up. Your leg ought to be more extended at the bottom of the pedal stroke.

But it's really not possible to do this with photos. That last photo caught my eye, though. But I also realize that it's your left knee and right elbow. But to me you look like bending your elbows and getting down further is going to be an issue. You look crammed in to the top of the bike. Your arms look like you are trying to push yourself away from the front of the bike. Maybe it's the way the photo's being shot.

mr handy

Ummmm.... is this a test..... IDK.

Not me?

DaveSSS 

Unfortunately, the OP has received a lot of outdated and incorrect information in these posts. It has been proven that ankling has little or no benefit and the best cyclists apply very little power on the upstroke. The best advice is to aim for a smooth pedal stroke (pedal in circles) and don't push hard on the pedal at the very bottom of the stroke, where no power can be applied. That results in pedaling squares with a low cadence. By the time the foot reaches the very bottom of the stroke you should be thinking about bringing the foot back around to the top.

The normal bend in the leg at the bottom of the stroke is in the 25-30 degree range, not 15.

A rough guideline for saddle height places the foot horizontal, with the leg locked out at the bottom of the stroke. During normal pedaling, a 2-3cm rise of the heel will produce the desired 30 degree bend at the knee.

From the pictures, your back angle in the hooks is fairly upright. Nothing wrong with that, but to get more aero, you'll have to bend the arms quite a bit and then you'll have knee to arm interference. Most of us can't tolerate a pro setup where the saddle to bar drop is in the 10-15cm range, but if you can, then you'll get a lower torso angle, with little bend in the arms. If you have no knee to arm overlap in the hooks, the stem is as long as it needs to be. Any longer just stresses the shoulder joint unnecessarily. If you bend the arms very much, it's always possible to create some knee to arm interference.

To really evaluate the effect of position changes with regard to power output, you must have a power meter on the bike. Even then, small changes are very difficult to document, since most riders see an increase in power as they train. Separating fitness gains from gains due to position changes isn't easy.

umd

Looking through some pictures from last year you can kind of see what's going on...

3 o-clock


~5 o-clock


~8 o-clock (note heel is down @ ~2 o-clock on NDS)


10-11 o-clock



Interestingly, I probably heel down more than I realize, especially when I climb. When I climb I really focus on circles, and I've done a computrainer test and had a really even circle so it's probably not too bad

OCRider2000

I have found that specific pedaling techniques like dropping your heals and to a lesser degree pedaling in circles do allow you to generate more power but at the cost of efficiency. Try riding at say 20mph the for 5 miles using the drop the heal technique and then repeat but this time resting on the upstroke. I think most of you will find you have expended less energy overall when resting on the upstroke. I spent some time with a fitter\coach who hooked my my bike up to a system that measured power output throughout the pedal stroke. He equated pedaling efficiency with generating power throughout the stroke. I dutifuly did my best pedaling in circles which generated somelike like 92 percent efficiency but there is no way I would use this as my standard pedaling technique on a regular basis as you end up expending more energy relative to resting on the upstroke. I think that whatever feels most natural to you will by definition be most effecient. For me that means keeping my heal up and resting on the upstroke.

rizz

Yeah, it's me, that's why I was giving you a hard time. Same shirt, bibs and shoes. What are the odds?

jonestr

I did. Try make a scraping motion at the bottom of the pedal stroke without dropping your heel, or just do it in front of your computer. To get that foot flat you will be dropping your heel.

jonestr

It looks like you are ankling which is probably the most important thing to do. from the 5 oclock position it looks like you seat is a little high, but it is hard to say. You seem to know what you are doing so it is probably just me.

Are those cat4 races? Everyone looks so pro except for the dude on the Kish.

umd

Yeah, cat 4. The guy on the Kish is a trackie. I've tried lowering my saddle in the past and was not happy with the results.

Edit: I'm surprised nobody said anything about my shoe strap

jonestr

I think a lot of that would have to do with how much you have trained your newly engaged muscles. If you pedal toe down you are mostly using your quads, but if you train up your glutes, hamstrings, and calves you will be able to rest certain muscle groups with different pedaling techniques and be able to ride faster for longer with less cramping.

jonestr

I forgot to mention. That happens to me in cross sometimes. Super annoying.

Do your sidis have any heel slip for you? My MTB sidis have a little more than I would like, but fit great otherwise.

umd

Heel slip?

jonestr

Have you gone to a fitter at all? I dropped my saddle after I got a good fit and I was super slow for a while, but I was a lot faster, especially on the flats, than i had ever been before. As I said, pictures can be deceiving for fitting so you may be just fine.

jonestr

If you are pulling up hard does your heel slip relative to the heel cup of the shoe?

pacificaslim

Yeah, sure it is.



The two red lines are parallel (thanks to adobe illustrator). Even though he isn't quite to 6 o'clock yet, and even though he is climbing a hill (unless his new thing is to cruise around in the small ring up front, ha!) his heel is already clearly up. His teammate is at 6 o'clock so his heel is up the 20 degrees or so that I mentioned from the biomechanists recommendations.

I'm not a pro rider or fitter. I'm just relating what the expert biomechanist types I've read have said and they say that heel down comes in from 12 to 3 o'clock to bring the bigger muscles of our legs into play as we push forward and then we'd best just start bringing the heel up to get out of the way.

We don't scrape mud off our shoes behind us! We extend our heel out in front of us, and pull it back towards us and finish on our toes right under our body. This is the part of the pedal stroke that takes place between 3 and 6 o'clock - in phase 2 of the stroke - the transition from heel down to toes down. This is the image that Lemond was trying to give us. The scraping doesn't happen between 6 and 9 as you're imagining, but between 3 and 6.

Reynolds 

I'd say your saddle is a bit low. Stem length looks OK to me.

umd

Oh I see what you are saying... I've never had that problem.

No, I've never had a "fit" done, but I've evolved my position over a few years and listened to the advice of more experienced people (some of whom are fitters) who have observed me on rides. I used to have my saddle way to high, I gradually moved it down following their advice (usually in the we're going to yell at you form ) until I had moved it down too far and found it uncomfortable and lost power, and moved it back up slightly. Each time I moved it I gave it a week or so. Mainly the issue was bouncing and now I can spin up to about 140-150 pretty easily without bouncing but after that I start to flail a bit...

Reynolds 

Be careful with that - you could injure your Achilles tendon by overdoing it.

grolby

Ah yes, the pedal stroke - the most over-analyzed gross motor movement in the history of sports.

To the OP: there is no one "right" way to pedal. Make sure that your saddle height is appropriate and pedal smoothly, which pretty much amounts to what someone else said about not continuing to push DOWN at the bottom of the stroke. But that's really all there is to it. Whatever is the most comfortable, most efficient way for YOU to put out power is the right way to pedal.