Inference, Implication, Imbecile.

It's a short walk on BF. And that's why I love this stupid place.

There's "marketing" and then there's borderline fraud. I've worked for an ethically challenged company and got out before the feds closed them down. That kind of business isn't the kind of company I'm going to trust to build something that I'm going to use at 40+ MPH. Fanboys can excuse anything in the name of a "bargain", I can't.

There you have it.

The reason that the "hate" threads are out there is because there is some evidence that there were some shady advertising/marketing practices going on, and now BD has made their bed. If they didn't want the reputation they should've stayed a bit further outside the gray area of giving people incentives to talk up products on a public forum.

With that said, and I do agree for the most part, they DO have some good bikes. I've already mentioned the Vent Noir. It currently sells for $699 with 105/Tiagra. A bike shop bike at that price will likely have Tiagra and Sora. The frames are made by Kinesis, one of the largest aluminum frame manufacturers. Raleigh frames are made by Kinesis, and look suspiciously the same (minus a few model years ie: the Vent Noir looks like a 3-4 year old Raleigh frame).

BD's steel frames look to be decent from what I've seen. To be honest though, I haven't seen very many "bad" steel frames in the past 10-20 years. Some of the bikes aren't that much of a "deal". The Kestrel Talon, for instance. They're selling the Talon for the same price we do. And we assemble it. The lesson there is, if you're going to buy a BD bike, buy a BD bike. Don't buy a Kestrel/Fuji thinking you're going to get a great deal. You aren't. You're only going to get a good deal on the Motobecane/Dawes/Windsor/Mercier bikes. And you're only getting a good deal when you spend over $600 for a road bike. Probably over $400 for a mountain bike. All of the SS/Fixies seem to be good deals, really, although I haven't seen all of them personally; only a couple.

So, the title of this topic was appropriate, despite the whining from those who see BD HATERZZZ!!1 everywhere. The buyer SHOULD beware when buying a bike from BD (or anywhere, for that matter). Don't spend too little. Don't think it will be assembled properly. Check it over carefully. Don't be afraid to buy a $600+ road bike from them, but do be prepared for some possible issues (cross-threaded bottom brackets, for instance). Lastly, if you aren't much of a mechanic, add the cost of having your local shop disassemble and reassemble the bike into the total. Being prepared is better than being surprised in a not-so-good way.

By golly, I think I'm gonna do it. I'm going to get the Fantom Uno . The Windsor Clockwork looks interesting too. It will be one of the two.
Ernest

I've seen one of those in person (Uno). It's a really cool bike for the $$$. Plus it has canti brakes. Even more cool.

Most of BDs frames look like other companies frames because they ARE other companies frames.

Most consumers would then logically question the company.

One's reputation is drawn from ALL transactions.

+1

Show us your very best evidence so we can separate fact from fiction.

Just for you sced

https://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.p...&postcount=107

https://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.p...&postcount=138

Is that the only instance?

fyi Dr Pete;

Infomercials

Infomercials are long-format television commercials, typically five minutes or longer.[1][2][3]. Infomercials are also known as paid programming (or teleshopping in Europe). Originally, they were a phenomenon that started in the United States where they were typically shown overnight (usually 2:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m.) --- outside of peak hours. Some television stations chose to air such programming as an alternative to the former practice of sign-off. By 2009, most US infomercial spending is during early morning, daytime, and evening hours. Stations in most countries around the world have instituted similar media structures.

The term "infomercial" is sometimes mis-applied and used to refer to direct response television advertisements (DRTV) of 60 to 120 seconds in length[4]. However, the term describes program length advertisements which, in the US, are typically 28 minutes and 30 seconds in length (see above references). In the US, DRTV advertisements of 30 seconds to 2 minutes in length are typically called "short form" or "DRTV spots" and not included in the advertising industry's use of the term "infomercial". Note that in the US market, a small amount of media can be purchased for 5 minute length advertisements however this time is quite limited. Outside of the US market, lengths depend on the lengths allowed by television stations and government regulators.

While the term "infomercial" was originally applied only to television advertising, it is now sometimes used to refer to any presentation (often on video) which presents a significant amount of information in an actual, or perceived, attempt to persuade to a point of view. Often, it is unclear whether the actual presentation fits this definition because the term is used hoping to dis-credit the presentation. In this way, political speeches may be derogatorily referred to as "infomercials" for a specific point of view.

Format
The word "infomercial" is a portmanteau of the words "information" and "commercial". As in any other form of advertisement, the content is a commercial message designed to represent the viewpoints and to serve the interest of the sponsor. Infomercials are often made to closely resemble actual television programming. Some imitate talk shows and try to downplay the fact that the program is actually an advertisement. A few are developed around storylines and have been called "storymercials". However most do not have specific formats but craft different elements to create what they hope is a compelling story about the product offered.

Infomercials are designed to solicit a direct response which is specific and quantifiable and are, therefore, a form of direct response marketing (not to be confused with direct marketing). For this reason, infomercials generally feature between 2 and 4 internal commercials of 30 to 120 seconds in length which invite the consumer to call or take other direct action. Despite the overt request for direct action, many consumers respond to the messages in an infomercial with purchases at retail outlets. For many infomercials, the largest portion of positive response they aim for is retail sales. These retail sales make infomercials similar in impact to traditional commercials where advertisers do not solicit a direct response from viewers, but create the commercials with a goal to leave behind messages and brand that the advertisers hope will lead people to purchase their product or increase acceptance of the product.

Many traditional Infomercial producers make use of flashy catchphrases, repeat basic ideas, and/or employ scientist-like characters or celebrities as guests or hosts in their ad. The book As Seen on TV (Quirk Books) by Lou Harry and Sam Stall highlights the history of such memorable products as the Flowbee, the Chia Pet, and Ginsu knives. Sometimes traditional infomercials use limited time offers and/or claim one can only purchase the wares from television to add pressure for viewers buy their products.

Major brands (e.g. Apple, Microsoft, Cadillac-Seville, Evinrude-E-TEC, Thermos-Grill2Go) have begun using infomercials for their ability to communicate more complicated and in-depth product stories. This practice started in the early 1990s and has increased since. Brands generally eschew the "cheesy" trappings of the traditional infomercial business in order to create communication they believe creates a better image of their products, their brands, and their consumers. Some other programs also touch on other issues which aren't selling anything, such as a paid program for a law firm dealing in recruiting mesothelioma patients for lawsuits which began to air in October 2008.

History
During the early days of television, many TV shows were specifically created by sponsors with the main goal of selling their product, with the entertainment value secondary. A good example of this is the early children's show The Magic Clown on NBC, which was created essentially as an advertisement for Bonomo's Turkish Taffy.[5] Eventually, FCC limits on the amount of advertising that could appear during an hour of television did away with these programs, forcing sponsors into the background.

It is quite possible that the first modern infomercial series which ran in North America was on San Diego-area television station XETV, which during the 1970s ran a one-hour television program every Sunday consisting of advertisements for local homes for sale. As the station was actually licensed by the Mexican government to the city of Tijuana, (but the station broadcasts all of its programs in English for the U.S. market), the FCC limit at that time of a maximum of 18 minutes of commercials in an hour did not apply to the station.

Infomercials proliferated in the United States after 1984 when the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) eliminated regulations that were established in the 1950s and 1960s to govern the commercial content of television.[citation needed] Much of their early development can be attributed to business partners Edward Valenti and Barry Beecher, who developed the format to sell the Ginsu Knife.

The longest continuously running infomercial is for "Barefoot," a general use arch support, created by Rosalinda Johnson and Andrew Hecker, which first aired in 1993.[6] The success of the Infomercial spawned the Good Feet Store that grew to 160 franchised locations based on the television markets the informercial airs in.

In Britain, teleshopping was pioneered in 1979 by Michael Aldrich who demonstrated real-time transaction processing from a domestic television and subsequently installed many systems throughout the UK in the 1980s.[7].

Some televangelists such as Robert Tilton and Peter Popoff buy television time from infomercial brokers representing TV stations around the U.S. and even some mass-distributed cable networks that are not averse to carrying religious programming. A block of such programming appears weekdays on BET under the umbrella title BET Inspiration. Politicians are also known to buy infomercial-length time blocks. See discussion below.

When they first appeared, infomercials were most often screened in the United States and Canada during late-night/early morning hours. As stations have found value in airing at other times, by 2008 a large portion of infomercial spending is early morning, daytime, early prime and even prime time. There are also entire networks devoted to just airing infomercials all day and night for the sole purpose of cable/satellite providers receiving revenue from the channel operator from any sales for their area, or to fill empty time on local programming channels. CNBC, which airs only one hour of infomercials nightly during the business week, airs up to 28 hours of infomercials on Saturdays and Sundays during the time where the network's business news coverage otherwise airs. A comparison of television listings from 2007 with 1987 verifies that many broadcasters in North America now air infomercials in lieu of syndicated TV series reruns and movies, which were formerly staples during the more common hours infomercials are broadcast (i.e., the overnight hours). Infomercials are a near-permanent staple of ION Television's daytime and overnight schedules; multichannel providers such as DirecTV have objected in the past to carrying ION feeds which consist largely of paid programming[8].

In 2008[citation needed], Tribune Media Services and Gemstar-TV Guide began to relax the guidelines for listing infomercials within their electronic program guide listings. Previously all infomercials were listed under the title "Paid Programming" (except for exceptions listed below), but now infomercial producers are allowed to submit a title and limited synopsis (phone numbers/websites to order a product/service seem to be disallowed) of the program's content to the listings providers.

The Fox Broadcasting Company announced that beginning in January 2009, all of its Saturday morning cartoon programming would be cancelled due to a compensation/distribution dispute with provider 4Kids Entertainment, which was replaced by a two-hour block of infomercials, Weekend Marketplace. [9] This made Fox the first major network (excluding borderline Ion Television) to carry a schedule of paid programming. However, many local stations already utilize Saturday morning slots to air locally-programmed paid programming or programs such as Video Car Lot, which features one dealer presenting their current selection of pre-owned vehicles to encourage customers to visit their lot. Some stations opted to use the extra time on Saturday morning for E/I programming, with infomercials relegated to before or after the block, or even limited to afternoons, if local newscasts are shown earlier.

Criticism and legal issues
In the United States, because of the sometimes sensational nature of the ad form and the questionable nature of some products, consumer advocates recommend careful investigation of the infomercial's sponsor[10], the product being advertised, and the claims being made before making a purchase. At the beginning of an infomercial, stations and/or sponsors normally run disclaimers warning that "the following program is a paid advertisement," and that the station does not necessarily support the sponsor's claims. (See "External Links" for two such examples.) A few stations take the warning further, encouraging viewers to contact their local Better Business Bureau or state or local consumer protection agency to report any questionable products or claims that air on such infomercials.

The FTC requires that any infomercial 15 minutes or longer must disclose to viewers that it is a paid advertisement. An infomercial is required to be "clearly and conspicuously" marked as a "paid advertisement for [particular product or service], sponsored by [sponsor]" at the beginning and end of the advertisement and before ordering instructions are displayed.[11]
Considerable FTC scrutiny is also given to results claims like those in diet/weight loss advertisements. They especially focus on the gray areas surrounding claims stated by "testimonials" because the producer's choice to include a specific testimonial is an action as intentional as writing a scripted claim. The rules controlling endorsements are modified from time to time to increase consumer protection and fill loop holes. [12] Industry organizations like the Electronic Retailing Association, who represents infomercial marketers, often try to minimize the impact of these rule changes. [13]

-Wiki

Do you need more? Do you think that if Mike sees nothing wrong with asking a random acquaintance to shill on here that he wouldn't have a problem asking/telling an employee to do the same?

C'mon man, wake up.

Ravemore's oft-mentioned experience is the only instance I have seen. Are there others or is his the only one?

Hey Ed,

Are you in any way compensated by any company or person associated with the bicycle industry?

The only one publicly known about. The thing is that it only takes one. Then, when you see thread after thread of almost identical "reviews" of BD's bikes, it leads one to wonder. I have neither the time nor the energy to go digging around and find links for you--I've been on this forum for almost 4 years and have seen a ton of cookie-cutter "reviews" that look nearly identical.

Like I said, if they didn't want to be associated with that kind of advertising they shouldn't have gone there in the first place.

Maybe some BF'ers should just call the FTC and/or the BBB and let them give us some "help"

Per Ravenmore, "Its been a long time, but yeah, I think so. He didn't ask me to say it was a great bike or talk it up. He just asked me to post a thread about it. Also, you have to realize my statement is a little out of context. He didn't just approach me out of the blue. He and I had been exchanging pm's about a lot of stuff. We know some of the same people and have hung out in the same places. This request came up in conversation and, like I said, I didn't take the discount but I did post about the bike. It was a ridiculous price for a full Record bike so, discount aside, I thought it was worth a post. I really didn't think it was a big deal at the time - people sure get bent out of shape about it though.

If people think his marketing tactics are slimy - that's fine. It bugs me a little too sometimes, but IME the bike's he sells are as good as, if not a little better than (usually), advertised."

I believe Ravenmore posted elsewhere that he had gone back and looked at his Emails with BD Mike. Does anybody remember this?

Where's the fraud? Lot's of companies quote exorbitant MSRP that nobody pays. Car companies for example. Is anyone buying cars at the MSRP? Or Macy's, they have an add in the paper this morning advertising gifts for Mother's Day. If you read the fine print it says "Reg/Orig prices are offering prices and savings may not be based on actual sales". Meaning that nobody ever actually bought the stuff at the prices they quote as the original price. Is Macy's committing fraud?

Giving away equipment for free or at a discounted price to get a review isn't fraud. Lots of companies do that. Is Bicycling mag buying the bikes they test? Pez did a review on the Quarq this week. Did they buy it?

I notice people don't like answering this question.

I'll answer it....

I'm the manager of a bike shop that sells Fuji, Breezer, SE Racing, Colnago, Pegoretti, Rocky Mountain, Raleigh, Bianchi, Kestrel, DeRosa, Felt, and maybe Tommasini.

So if I buy a toyota.... either a base yaris or a camry. Do I expect the quality to be pretty similar with the exception of the options? Yes. I really think that if your going to brand something it needs to represent what your selling in a positive light.

Why do most of us look down on schwinn now? Is it maybe because they are sold at big box stores and are crappy? They do make some high end road bikes..... I sure never see them on the road in my neck of the woods.

If I purchase a product from specialized, trek and giant... do I also expect a reasonable level of quality in the product across the product line? yes.

What it does for windsor is cheapen the brand name. water seeks it's own level. perception is reality. after reading the op's post i would never consider a windsor. does that say that they are all crap? no. I'm just not willing to find out if i bought the right one. no.

To each his/her own. Buy what you like. I don't see how the OP taking pictures of a substandard bike. crappy welds and such is an attack on anything. if i purchased a new giant,trek or specialized and it was put together in the same way you can be sure that i would post pictures here. that being said...... i could see it with my eyes before i lay down my money. if your selling direct you have to be better than the brick and mortar.

Example would be Williams, Soul and many others. quality products with great customer service who over deliver will earn my business. it also will win you praise and many happy customers and positive referrals.

my 2 cents.

If you buy a BD bike and are happy with it. Enjoy the your bike and get out and ride. my 2 cents.

Agreed... but my God their paint and graphics are fugly. Their Ti bikes look OK, but my Fantom DS is just ugly.

ya man. you got it.... schill taste great on a toasted bun