Fail.

I grew up in a family who loved Fords. Thats all we owned. Never had any real issues with them. Had an old Escort, never had an issue.

I have a friend whose family owned Fords and vowed never to buy one again. Did nothing but give them problems. They had the same model Escort, was nothing but a headache for them.

Which one example is reasonably representitive of the model line? The answer is obviously the second because ALL ******* were POSes right?

You're arguement fails because there will always be mistakes that make it through without being caught. What makes a company good or bad is how they respond to the mistakes that make it through.

Which goes back to the BBB report on BD.

I have a copy of the pm BD Mike sent him, it's very explicit.

You are mistaken about the point of the argument. Your second paragraph illustrates the point of the argument, which you apparently have experienced first hand by observing a friend - it is a reasonable response because reasonable people have that response, not because it's a logical one. Obviously, one bad apple does not a bunch make, but bad impressions carry weight. Good reputations are won little by little, and lost in big sweeps.

Share it. Get it all out there once and for all.

We're still waiting for you to share yours

Posting PM's is against the rules.

Technically, if you were looking only for "logical" responses to quality, I would say that for an aluminum frame (no rust danger), there is nothing wrong in engineering terms with part of a welding rod stuck in a weld and for a weld joint in the BB area to not be fully filled.

Yes, the partial weld will fail more easily than a good quality weld, and it will fatigue much quicker, but a broken weld in the BB area is not dangerous to the rider. The quality of the components are such that the bike will probably fail in some other respect long before a rider of a $300 road bike gets around to fatiguing the weld. In engineering terms, it's fine - the bike will live up to it's engineering specifications. But it's sloppy and does not make for a good impression.

How about paraphrasing?

(sorry--inadvertent edit due to new mod. )

For once I agree with Ed. Paraphrase it. Get it out there once and for all.

Hasn't this already been done? Regardless, it is terribly poor form to attempt to exchange a discount for a good review. If it's done once, I'd expect that a person of such morals will be attempting it more than once.

It's not my place and I would certainly never post someone else's pm's, that's against the rules

Do I have to spell it out for you?
It's a blatant offer of a substantial discount in exchange for him posting threads "around" with links to the site.

Wow, if the above-mentioned posts are true, BD just got a huge smudge mark from me.


Actually, I give his report a B+.

Using your example, I don’t doubt you had good experiences with Ford. But using yourself and your friend doesn’t tell the whole story. Look at the bigger picture (like consumer reports, Edmunds, etc.). More samples you take, the more accurate you are (usually). Looking at that, Ford pales in comparison to other manufacturers. It’s not that you will have the same amount of problem with every car, but your CHANCES of having a problem is increased/decreased with a particular car maker. This is why I only have Toyota’s and Honda’s in my garage, and the Jeeps are gone. Same is true for bikes. Seems more people have problems with BD than other models. Doesn't mean every bike is a defect, but the chances of that are increased. It's your money. For me, I'd rather take a safer investment (err...expense, I guess ).

Then you couple that with some of that other shady stuff going on....

I agree with this, i bought a windsor fens a couple years back...ugly bike. i even have a photo of it up in "what road bike do you have?" sticky. It's served the purpose, mostly. My next purchase will not be from BD though. I want something with a lot more style and a whole lot less ugly.

Definitely and you have....any qualifications? ...and thanks.

who needs qualifications to paraphrase a note? I assume he knows how to read...

You can believe someone or not believe someone if you want. It's the internet. You know the deal. For all I know, you are a sockpuppet of BDmike. Not saying you are, but there is no true way I can know one way or another, except for your written word. If you are saying MONGO! is lying (I don't think he is, but you seem to think so), come out and make your charge. Don't hide behind your request to reveal (against forum rules) a Personal Message.

geez yah think aye ?

I like what you're trying to say here, but I do take issue with it. Particularly this:
I have been a part of organizations that were always heavily praised for their ability to respond to any issue that arrose. Eventually they all lost business to other organizations that made it a point to prevent issues from arrising.

I had to chuckle though becuase when I read that I could hear that coming out of the mouths of a ton of plant managers and sales guys I have worked with in the past....and a few customers....

The main reason I take issue with it thought is because it is a very American way of thinking about quality. We accept that failure is inevitable before we even begin. Thank god not all industries are like this otherwise there would be many more airplane crashes, and nuclear meltdowns in power plants.

But what if those industries were more friendly by following up with airplane ticket refunds and distributing free radiation hazmat suits?

Then it would be OK I guess. I mean everyone makes mistakes right? Who are we to punish those that do by not giving them our business again in the future. I mean seriously....

What BD is doing is lying. It might be legal but it's dishonest (and sleazy). Just because people should know better, doesn't mean it's right.

Lots of people do. And people who are not buying cars at MSRP are not buying them at 1/2 MSRP!

It may not legally be "fraud" but it is dishonest. Just because people should know better doesn't make it right (morally) to be dishonest.

=========================

Yes, it might be "good enough". There is a limit to what you can expect at the low end of the price scale. Things are (should be) better at the higher end because people are being paid to make the effort. A lot of "cosmetic" quality is done because of what it implies about the quality related to value (utility). ("Cosmetic" quality does not provide value because it does not provide utility.)

I think a better sense of quality is to look at the curve of cost versus value/performance. As prices increase, the curve starts to plateau (ie, where the "diminishing returns" really start happening). It's the other direction of this curve that is relevant to this thread.

In the other direction, as prices decrease, you will likely find that value/quality falls off faster than the price decreases.

The classic "you get what you pay for" means that if you pay 1/2 as much, you will get 1/2 the value/quality. At low prices, it's almost certain that you don't get proportionally less quality, you get "much less than you pay for". That is, you are spending money on junk.

I'd guess that a $700 bike is likely to out last a $300 bike by many more than 2 times. Keep in mind that very cheap often means "cheap to build" not "cheap to repair". A $4000 bike is highly unlikely to outlast a $1000 bike (let alone last as long as 4 times).

You can make a bike that is "too cheap" (and I think $300 is about where "too cheap" is).

I agree with you, nj. On the “Motobecane” site, it does list the full MSRP price, but no link to actually buy it. It’s also strange how the Motobecane, Mercier, Windsor site and the Dawes site looks exactly the same (do not confuse Dawes of UK with https://www.dawescyclesusa.com). I know that there are bigger companies that own lots of little companies, but they are actual separate entities. All the ones on BD seem to be just mashed together. They should’ve just stuck with one brand and just worked off of that site, instead of creating some phony sites directing them back to BD.
I know that some of those Honda Fits are still selling for MSRP. They were even selling for much over MSRP when gas was up.

The entire music industry does that whole list price is 40% higher than actual price thing too.

Names like "Motobecane" are deceptions too (no surprise) and that fact enhances the sleaze factor.

Typically, when cars sell for more than MSRP, it's because people are impatient or want the "hot" new thing. I have no idea why people would spend more than MSRP on a car. There might be a few rare situations where it might be rational to do but, generally, it doesn't make any sense!

Is this your first official action as a Mod?