And the collective IQ of the Road Cycling forum posts would increase by the 90%

Oh, noooo, that's not how these things work; the smart ones would simply leave, knowing they can get their info elsewhere without all the worthless banter. :thumb:

This thread was originally about why females might not feel comfortable participating in this forum due to the vulgar and sexist comments. It stayed on track longer than I thought it would, but the petty comments about winning arguments and other crap that has little or nothing to do with the subject, have pulled it way off topic.

Some of the comments by the females in this thread were spot on, particularly by trigger. I do hope that more females post in the future and can look beyond the juvenile attitudes and offensive comments to ask questions and share their knowledge.

I agree with the mods in letting this thread play itself out. No harm done and maybe a few will think before they type. Then again, this is BF, not too likely.

Thank you for helping make my point.

No offense, but how did you make that leap?

So much for respect and all that. Last two pages sum up exactly why women avoid this forum. Who wants to stand up to guys who believe that women should be blamed if they're ***** while dressed "provocatively"?

Also, guys, if you think the only way that women can attract a guy's attention is through showing cleavage, you're doing it wrong.

All I hear in this thread is, "Men do this, men do that, blah blah blah..." Anything worse and we're eating babies and clubbing panda bears.

This is why I never strike up conversations with women -- I have to be defensive from the start. Just because I'm a guy doesn't mean that I want to sleep with every girl I see.

Maybe I should stop carrying a harness and cat o' nine tails... :lol:

I don't see that anyone has said that. If that's what you want to read into it, that's your choice.

No need to be defensive. Simple courtesy works just fine. Nobody's saying that you want to sleep with every girl you see.

Blaming women for being ***** - calling them "stupid", "dick teases" and "hookers" who dress "provocatively":

:twitchy:

DrPete has articulated it much better than I could.

Alright, time to chill back the personal attacks a bit, folks, or the thread will wind up closed for a cooling off period.

I'm not sure how we got from women feeling a bit uncomfortable when they come into the Road forum ...... to ****. Can we take several large steps back please?

Let's go back to a comment I thought I read here ... there's too many pages to go through to find it now ... something about society, women, and exercise.


I suspect part of the reason women feel uncomfortable coming into the Road forum has nothing at all to do with the possibility of encountering crude comments, but rather that for some reason society in general still does not encourage women to be active.

When the Paris-Brest-Paris first started, there were women who wanted to participate in it, but they were turned down because it was thought that a ride of that magnitude might kill them ... and also probably because doing things like that wasn't considered lady-like. But that was the attitude of the turn of the century ... women were considered fragile, and participating in sports was considered un-lady-like.

Unfortunately that attitude has continued through the years, although the current curriculums (in Canada and Australia, at least) are trying to encourage girls to participate in sports and to make sports and activity a life-long thing.

In addition to that is the attitude that women are naturally not mechanically inclined. I don't think that's true ... they just haven't been given a chance to become mechanically inclined. Throughout history women have been taught to sew and cook and do that sort of thing, while the men were out working with the horses and plow, or working on the tractor, or whatever. Again, it wasn't considered lady-like to fix a tractor.

And schools promoted this by putting the guys into shop and putting the girls into the cooking classes. Even when I went to school, I was put in one shop class (because they were making a very small effort to make all the classes gender neutral) where I was allowed to bend metal, but that was it ... I was not allowed to actually work on the car or anything, and I was put in several sewing and cooking classes ... which I hated and never did very well in.

So many of the guys here may have gotten their first bicycles when they were 5 or 6 and have been tearing around on bicycles since then, and have been involved in other sports. They may also have been involved in mechanical activities like the shop classes where they rebuild engines etc., so they have developed a mechanical ability. They have also developed the vocabulary that goes along with being involved in sports and mechanical things.

Women may have gotten a bicycle when they were young too, but by the time they hit their teen years most women I know put the bicycle away and if they were involved in any sort of sport, they gradually stopped doing that too. Most women I know have never rebuilt a car or done anything mechanical. They don't know an allen key from a crescent wrench. Most women I know got married and had kids and became working or stay-at-home moms and never gave their bicycles or sports a second thought.

And many women, even here on BF, are still in that sort of mindset. IF they happen to get a bicycle it's because of pressure from a husband or boyfriend, or maybe a vague desire to get into shape. But they feel like they know so little about bicycles that they are not even sure what questions to ask. They might not even have the vocabulary to use. Maybe they venture in here, but they see everyone talking away using words they don't understand or in ways they don't understand. And they see all the teasing that goes on. And so ... they don't come back here to ask questions.


I have had no problem coming here to the Road forum. I've been cycling since I was 6 years old. I grew up in a family where both my parents cycled. I grew up reading Bicycling Magazine. This is all familiar territory to me.

But I'm venturing into the world of mtn biking with the paths and trails around here so I thought I'd go into the Mountain Bike Forum for the first time ever last week and see if I could find any advice on descending. I thought I'd start by reading their Newbie sticky ... because that's what we encourage newbies to do here. I made it about halfway through the first post in the Newbie sticky and was lost. The Newbie thread was too advanced for me. I don't know their vocabulary! I glanced over some of the other posts and felt even more intimidated and lost. I left without asking my question and haven't been back because I was afraid my question would sound really stupid and that I wouldn't understand the answers they gave me anyway.

I suspect that's how a lot of women (and perhaps male newbies as well) feel when they come here too.


What can we do about it? I'm not sure ... but in the Mountain Bike forum I would have appreciated a dictionary of terms as a sticky ... maybe we need something like that here too. Maybe we need to take another look at the Newbie sticky to make sure it is welcoming ... and basic.

All the attitudes exist on a continuum, and honestly I think the conversation has brought out some fairly disturbing attitudes. There's definitely a common thread of "men can't help it, so women have to deal" that seems incredibly benign when talking about conversations/forum discussions but seems quite horrific when taken to its not-so-far-fetched logical conclusion.

Just thought I'd point out that there are mods and admins keeping an eye on this thread, and that not clicking on a thread really doesn't require all that much effort.

Of course I'll teach her to be smart/safe, but ultimately smart and safe don't matter. Meanwhile, my wife is working with the frat boys to teach them that no, it's not OK to get a girl hammered and have your way with her without her consent, to abuse them verbally, emotionally, or physically, etc. etc. Changing men's attitudes toward women is a much more effective way of changing things than just telling women to stay inside, never drink, and not interact with the opposite sex ever.

fixed.

In the words of Crocodile Dundee,
"just checking"

Well said. I think that if men would try to see things from the points of view of their wives and daughters, we wouldn't be afflicted with as much of this BS as we are.

I use any opportunity to brag about my own daughters, one a financial analyst, the other a Harvard educated lawyer. They continue to teach me much and always with humor. Somehow they have survived the failings of their parents and a sexist society.

You should be proud of 'em danarnold!

(And reading your post, you definitely are)

This is completely inane thinking. Women get *****, rofeed even if they are wearing Amish dresses. If you know anything about women at all, they go pretty and sexy for themselves, other women and then men, in that order. No one goes **** frenzy in Scandinavia in the summer in a sea of beautiful naked women sunbathing.

Thanks DrPete, you are absolutely spot-on. I've been staying out of this because I'm just too run-down on the subject to get involved, I'm glad to see that there's some thoughtfulness and compassion here.

And BarracksSi and others who are feeling defensive about "men do this, men do that..." etc: if it's not about you, then it's not about you.

But of course, it IS about us. You hear about this because **** and sexual assault are things that men do to women. Period. Yes, there are cases where women abuse men, and these men need resources, but it is simply a drop in the bucket compared to the harassment, abuse and **** committed against women by men. When as many as 1 in 4 college-aged women have reported having had sexual contact to which they did not consent, you have a massive society-wide problem. This is why the most effective education is focused on men. Men are the perpetrators. And DrPete is very right to point out that the kind of attitudes commonly expressed on this board and in this thread are the kind of attitudes that enable this behavior, which is, not altogether inappropriately, described by some as a war against women.

So if you actively speak out against the attitude that women, no matter what it is they're doing, should be trying to please you, or the idea that men both lack self-control and that this is okay, or against the idea that women who get ***** or harassed are, somehow, more responsible for being ***** or harassed than the man who actually did it, then it doesn't apply to you.

But if not, you have something to think about. Don't get defensive. Do something about it. There's no doubt that awareness can lead to some painful introspection and even shame, but making the world safer and more fun for everyone is worth an occasional personal challenge. There's no need to wear a hairshirt about it, or anything.

Oh, right, what does this have to do with the board? As DrPete said, plenty. And if nothing else, it makes this one more place that isn't comfortable or safe to just exist and engage in a hobby for your own personal enjoyment and actualization. Lots of us cycle to get away from the worries of everyday life. What many women are hearing when they log onto this board is that, even when they're on a bike, the real reason that they're out there is to provide eye candy for male cyclists. In fact, lots of you won't let them ever forget it. And if that's the case, well damn - why ride? Why post here? Where's the fun when you're not taken seriously except as part of the scenery? What a crappy situation.

^^Yes. This.

I think we should give ourselves one big group Internets hug and all agree to kiss and make up.

Is...that...OK?

Those of us who have been insensitive, whoever we may be and however blind to our shortcomings we are, need to promise to do better.

I for one have really really learned a lot from Dr Pete and the rest of you who labor to educate the Philistines.

After all, my wife, mother, three daughters and two granddaughters are all female and I would that everyone show them respect and deference, as I would to any mother, wife, daughter, or granddaughter out there.

Good grief and good night.

+1000

Which brings up another question --

Is is helpful at all when female racers -- legitimate cyclists by any definition, and can kick most of our asses any day of the week -- do sexy photoshoots for their sponsors, teams, portfolios, etc?

Granted, most of those pics don't show up unless someone starts a Hot Bike Chicks thread, but then again, there'd be a lot fewer pictures being posted if they weren't shot in the first place.

Not that the infamous Polish team pic helps anyone take men's cycling seriously... :lol: