Agreed. In the same way that men are allowed to report posts that they find offensive, women are 100% allowed to do the same.

I also agree that calling out a "not cool" post is absolutely the thing to do. By not encouraging/condoning the behavior we're going a long way toward establishing a standard for the forum.

And hey--if I have to give an infraction for a sexist/inappropriate comment, I guess I just can't help it, because that's the way I am. If you're so sensitive about it maybe you should lighten up. :)

No, it's a rhetorical technique which, though useful in some instances, is doing nothing but muddying the waters of an already convoluted debate. I recall pretty much NEVER seeing a thread posted by a woman in the RC forum about sanitary products or other distinctly female issues. We've not once said we want to discuss those things on the RC forum (that's what our other forum is for), we just want to be able to participate without having to put up with too much bull****. Some is an inevitable by-product of participating in a male dominated sport, and we get that. Really, we do. But there are instances when it crosses the line ... this is all we're concerned about. Other men have agreed that there have been instances of things going too far, surely you can agree as well. That's all we're talking about. I, and I think most ladies here, have a reasonably thick skin ... we're just asking for some commonsense civility.

I'm not offended by the male specific threads, and generally speaking, women don't post in them, so I don't agree that a male oriented forum is needed. It's pretty clear when a thread is about issues I don't share, and I move on. The Women's forum is there because the a) it seems some men do mind the female issues and b) some can't leave those threads alone. Cool. No problem, I see the point. HOWEVER, we should be able to post about (and otherwise participate in) issues related to Road Cycling in the Road Cycling forum without undue harassment, and that's all this is about.

I think in general we all agree with one another - the length and civility of the discussion in this thread points to that.

I think people are afraid that they'll have to 'censor' themselves and not say anything 'fun' and be 100% politically correct all the time. That's not the case. Women have a sense of humour too. The difference between some joshing around vs. total ignorance is a lack of respect. I'm more offended by posts saying that women need to be babied and bribed into cycling than the just plain crude threads. The ones explaining in graphic detail how and why their nuts are numb are just pure entertainment :).

+1

In Road Cycling, I am pleasantly surprised that this thread has stayed on topic with very little insertion of the types of posts and humor it was started to address.

I won't speak for anybody else, but I think most people realize that men and women have some thoughts that are best left unexpressed in public... maybe some should be held back in private too. ;)

But anyway, in the time I have been here, there seems to be a little more acceptance of the need to show restraint because regardless of the ratio of men and women, each side deserves respect.

I wish it was fully safe for everyone now, but seeing the current trend is encouraging.

Then you're going to love this....














Just kidding. :D

Agreed. but the general trend toward PC "correctness" is ripe for policing to placate the "terminally offended." So, who says "This is too much" to some pig or HTFU to someone who simply needs to HTFU? While a significant part of me understands and sympathizes with your perspective, a part of me is also saying that this is, in fact, how the world really is (agreed, often amplified here in BF). If you have a fundamental problem, then there are 2 truths at play. 1) You can not change the whole world, or even a small part of it in 99.99% of the cases. (If you could, then BF wouldn't need mods) 2) For happiness, confidence, and all those positive attributes, you must know when to look within yourself and find your own individual path. When you come to a point where pigs can be pigs and still not get you dirty, or at least you are comfortable with decisions to vote with your feet and not look back, I believe the pigs will start to look small.

The issue within BF is, I still believe, that women really have no SIGNIFICANT place of their own (ref: previous posts) and that there is no "slop trough" for the pigs. And yes, I also realize that BF doesn't want to become a "lowest common denominator" type website. So even the pig trough will have to have rules, and some will push them and still require banning etc. In a society where speech is supposed to be free, establishing a place for pigs to be pigs has practical advantages (within the bounds of the law). While I would not go there, I would wager that it won't be vacant.

Oh give me a break.

If you can't tell where the line between reasonable humour, kidding around and "male" behaviour ends and inappropriate behaviour starts, your real life must be either markedly empty or terribly complex.

I'm only 30, but I was pretty confident we'd left the "like it or lump it" attitude with regard to attitudes toward race AND gender somewhat behind us.

A good rule of thumb for self censoring might be that if the comment in question wouldn't be acceptable in a racial context (ie: intended toward a certain racial group), then it's probably not cool when it's directed at a specific gender group.

There's no need to be obtuse about this. Humour / guys being guys = ok. Vulgarity / misogyny = not ok.

I don't want a place of my own. Nothing would be more boring that to only be able to hang out with women, and I would learn substantially less about cycling. What I (dare I say we ladies) want is simply to be able to participate in a Road Cycling forum in subjects about Road Cycling without being bombarded by the sentiment that we are nothing more than often annoying pieces of meat in colourful lycra there for the express purpose of turning you on.

I am a cyclist, and I can hold my own with my male riding partners on the road; I should be able to participate in discussions about the sport I pursue with the same multi-faceted, multi-racial, multi-gendered group that I meet often in RL.

To be fair, and most of the females posting on this thread have reiterated this, the instances of inappropriate behaviour is RARE considering the daily post count. Just because it is rare doesn't mean we should just accept it.

Well, I will point you back to my last post and ask you why you misunderstood. Bad word choice on my part? Maybe. Bad interpretation on your part? Maybe. The question remains. What is just good fun to you or me would be, to some, extremely excessive and prejudice commentary. I believe you and I would agree as to what is and isn't appropriate. However, what would a modern-day puritan say about the commentary? THAT was the intent of the post, and to point out that movements to placate the "most offended" are what we are dealing with in modern society.

Remember, even modern day judges have a hard time establishing what is, in the eves of the law, truly vulgar. That's a lot of intelligent people wrestling with a VERY big question, and still finding only some common ground.

And I'm simply saying that we seem to have figured that out with regard to racial humour pretty well. There's almost of none of it on this forum, and very little of it in daily life. I doubt many of us feel unduly censored now that it's not cool to use the N word or make "harmless" racial slurs and jokes.

It shouldn't be any harder to figure out what's cool and uncool with regard to gender based commentary. Really, it's not rocket science.

If you want to extend this argument into one that encompasses the complex evolution of social norms and the relationship between those norms and ideas of law and governance you'll have to excuse me, I already have one thesis on the go and don't have time for two right now.

Within the BF community, we should be able to figure this out. Jizz jokes, "did she swallow", "aim for her chest", the incessant calls for female posters to post a pic etc ... not cool, we could agree? The pics of Hatch (minus some, not all of the commentary), most of the "was she hot?" comments etc ... generally cool, and the contributing ladies to this thread seem to agree.

I repeat, not rocket science.

This is really heating up... That's a good thing, right?

Well it is helping me put off working on the aforementioned thesis. :thumb:

:eek:


:D

:thumb:

Clearly women are more than pieces of meat to men. We care about personality and intelligence and athletic ability all the same stuff that women care about. But by the age of 30, surely you should have figured out that the first thing men will consider about a woman is her physical appearance and the other stuff is secondary. We can't help that. It's how we are designed. You can go through life being uncomfortable with that if you'd like, but it's not anything that you're going to be able to change.

uh ... scratch that. It's ... uh, helping me warm up. That's it! :D I've got nimble agile fingers on the keyboard now.


(but seriously, I shall withdraw from the arena of debate for a while. somebody else can have at it!)

I like that guys work that way. We do, really.

It's all in the delivery ... construction worker cat-calls, not so productive in securing alone time with the girl in question. Other approaches that I'm sure you've tried ... much more successful.

This whole conversation is about approach, and too often it's like walking past one long unending construction site in this form. NOT always. NOT even often, but still "too" often. You dig?


(seriously. off to do work now. really.)

Here is an example to help you understand my perspective. This rant is not real, but it is an example of some behaviors of the "terminally offended".

Mr/Ms Moderator,

I am a guy
I do not suck

Trigger's Avatar is offensive (suck) and sexist (guys).

If it reflected a truly equal perspective, the reference would be gender neutral.

Please have it removed.







Hmmmm, maybe it IS rocket science.

*facepalm*

I understand where you're coming from, but I do think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Oh give it a rest will you! Not only have your posts showed poor ability to construct a debate and make points people can connect with, but your entire stance on the matter is ignorant.

You DO NOT need to have a place, here, where you can make sexually irresponsible conversation
Women DO NOT need to find another source for cycling information.

GROW UP!

I was going to say something but I find the environment too hostile now.

seriously.

I am abandoning this thread and perhaps, to some degree, the 41 as well.

:twitchy:

hmm, you're back. I was about to steal your avatar.

The problem is that for many women "guys being guys" isn't ok. They equate "guys being guys" with vulgarity regardless of context. The simple assumption that "guys will be guys" IS the vulgarity.

<one word reply>

How in God's name has this not been moved to foo? For all the threads the mods feel the need to move, this one doesn't get the nod? *boggle*