Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

How does the tire support the rim?

Search
Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

How does the tire support the rim?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 05-11-10 | 05:14 PM
  #51  
rm -rf's Avatar
don't try this at home.
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,220
Likes: 704
From: N. KY
Originally Posted by thompsonpost
I'm certain that a spoke tension meter with an extremely accurate capacity would take two different measurements from a wheel with an inflated tire installed and a wheel without a mounted tire. Hell, I don't know, now where did the mud go?
There's a noticeable decrease in tension when the tires are inflated, at least with some rims. The physics of it is over my head, though.

Using a Park Tool tension meter,
A Mavic Aksium rear wheel has about 20 kgf less tension in the drive side spoke when it's at 100 psi, compared to the uninflated tire.
My old Campagnolo Vento front has 15 kgf less tension at 100 psi.
rm -rf is offline  
Reply
Old 05-11-10 | 08:02 PM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 358
Likes: 1
From: Irving, TX

Bikes: Schwinn Paramount

There's a noticeable decrease in tension when the tires are inflated, at least with some rims. The physics of it is over my head, though.
With a clincher, the air pressure inside the tire pushes evenly on the rim all the way around, trying to squeeze it into a slightly smaller diameter. The spokes stretch between the hub and the rim, as the rim gets smaller the spokes get shorter, reducing their tension.
bjtesch is offline  
Reply
Old 05-11-10 | 09:40 PM
  #53  
wens's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,215
Likes: 0
From: Northeast Ohio
Originally Posted by Aimulator64
That doesnt matter..... If you have a heavier person sit on the same tire, the oval would increase in size, then the volume of air inside the tire would stay the same. The air that is compressed rushes to the rest and top of the tire, expanding the distance between the top of the tire and the top of the rim. Volume of air in no way changes.
For there to be no volume change air would have to be an incompressible fluid. It is not. If you filled your tires with water the volume would not change, but the pressure would to support the increased load. The tire would also have to be a rigid body, which is also not that case. If the pressure didn't change the loading would cause an increase in volume equal to the volume displaced by the area flattened by the contact patch. This also doesn't happen.
wens is offline  
Reply
Old 05-11-10 | 10:32 PM
  #54  
Aimulator64's Avatar
Don't forget to look up!
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 267
Likes: 2
From: New York

Bikes: Raleigh Route 2, Motobecane Sprint Ultegra, Performer JC-70 Recumbent Trike (soon)

Volume is a term that defines quantity. In terms of the tire as a whole, the amount of air inside does not change. The air "compresses" in the tire, but the volume of air does not decrease. If you let the air out of the tire after riding, the same amount of air would come out of the tire as you originally put in, granted none leaked out. And the pressure does not change, and that is why you dont put 300psi in a tire.... 120 psi is stiff, but enough to allow slight compression to make a tire not become a solid entity. 120 psi allows the air to move upward in the tire as it rolls, and the pressure of the air inside the whole tire does not change, but at the particular spot in the tire, yes, pressure increases, but at the same time, the pressure forcing the air down toward the rim by the TOP of the tire also increases. So if you are trying to say pressure at a particular spot increases, then it does, but if you are saying the pressure inside the tire as a whole increases, then that is incorrect.

Amount of air nor pressure inside the whole tire does not change. If you want to create formula's that explain the pressures of a specific surface area, thats beyond my knowledge.
Aimulator64 is offline  
Reply
Old 05-11-10 | 10:38 PM
  #55  
TMB's Avatar
TMB
Permanent Refugee .......
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
From: Okanagan Valley, BC.

Bikes: Steel

I actually thought that when the weather got better the threads would get less inane.

I was wrong.
TMB is offline  
Reply
Old 05-12-10 | 05:12 AM
  #56  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts

Bikes: Serotta Fierte Steel

Originally Posted by Aimulator64
Volume is a term that defines quantity. In terms of the tire as a whole, the amount of air inside does not change. The air "compresses" in the tire, but the volume of air does not decrease. If you let the air out of the tire after riding, the same amount of air would come out of the tire as you originally put in, granted none leaked out. And the pressure does not change, and that is why you dont put 300psi in a tire.... 120 psi is stiff, but enough to allow slight compression to make a tire not become a solid entity. 120 psi allows the air to move upward in the tire as it rolls, and the pressure of the air inside the whole tire does not change, but at the particular spot in the tire, yes, pressure increases, but at the same time, the pressure forcing the air down toward the rim by the TOP of the tire also increases. So if you are trying to say pressure at a particular spot increases, then it does, but if you are saying the pressure inside the tire as a whole increases, then that is incorrect.

Amount of air nor pressure inside the whole tire does not change. If you want to create formula's that explain the pressures of a specific surface area, thats beyond my knowledge.
Pretty sure your confusing volume with mass........ Volume describes the amount of space the air takes up, mass defines the amount of air present. Changing volume will change the pressure per PV=nRT.........

Last edited by GrotonPaul; 05-12-10 at 05:16 AM.
GrotonPaul is offline  
Reply
Old 05-12-10 | 05:20 AM
  #57  
Aimulator64's Avatar
Don't forget to look up!
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 267
Likes: 2
From: New York

Bikes: Raleigh Route 2, Motobecane Sprint Ultegra, Performer JC-70 Recumbent Trike (soon)

Originally Posted by GrotonPaul
Pretty sure your confusing volume with mass........ Volume describes the amount of space the air takes up, mass defines the amount of air present. Changing volume will change the pressure per PV=nRT.........
Ahh gotcha.
Aimulator64 is offline  
Reply
Old 05-12-10 | 05:27 AM
  #58  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts

Bikes: Serotta Fierte Steel

Originally Posted by Aimulator64
Ahh gotcha.
I guess you did**********??
GrotonPaul is offline  
Reply
Old 05-12-10 | 05:34 AM
  #59  
Aimulator64's Avatar
Don't forget to look up!
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 267
Likes: 2
From: New York

Bikes: Raleigh Route 2, Motobecane Sprint Ultegra, Performer JC-70 Recumbent Trike (soon)

its been a long time since physics.
Aimulator64 is offline  
Reply
Old 05-12-10 | 06:45 AM
  #60  
ls01's Avatar
he said member
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 13,813
Likes: 1,952
From: is everything

Bikes: yes please

Originally Posted by rydaddy
All I know is I have measured a difference in spoke tension after inflating a clincher. There is a reduction.

correct.
ls01 is offline  
Reply
Old 05-12-10 | 06:45 AM
  #61  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts

Bikes: Serotta Fierte Steel

Yeah, tell me about it, seems like 30 years for me, oh wait a minute....
GrotonPaul is offline  
Reply
Old 05-12-10 | 05:18 PM
  #62  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 546
Likes: 2
From: NorCal

Bikes: 2009 Surly Cross Check Frankenbike

The air in the tire presses in all directions, including inward toward the hub. I don't know jack about physics and even I can figure that out. If you have a sensitive enough instrument you would be able to measure some drop in spoke tension although it might be tiny, depending on the psi and inherent rim strength (a deep V probably compresses less than a single-wall box rim).

Jobst Brandt has discussed (argued?) this stuff in The Bicycle Wheel and in usenet discussions. You should all read his Q&A on bikes. You can learn about bikes and also get a lesson in being blunt, condescending and prickly in internet discussions - good training for Bike Forums.

Last edited by Al Criner; 05-12-10 at 05:18 PM. Reason: spelling correction
Al Criner is offline  
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
csho
Bicycle Mechanics
12
05-17-17 12:11 PM
str8flexed
Bicycle Mechanics
15
11-17-14 11:20 AM
njlonghorn
Bicycle Mechanics
4
09-23-13 04:28 PM
mynewnchome
Bicycle Mechanics
31
11-16-12 05:35 PM
BDurant
Bicycle Mechanics
11
03-13-10 04:14 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.