Ive got a buddy running the Williams on his Scott CR1. He likes them a lot. I cant remember if they are 38 or 58. I will find out and post a pic of his ride.

I just used my Williams 58 Tubulars for the first time over the weekend. I can't say that I noticed a difference in top-end speed over my Ultegra SL wheelset. They are stiffer and acceleration seems a tad faster than the Ultegras though. I bought mine used for ~$450 and I am happy with them so far for that price. I can't imagine that any wheels are worth $2000 and I only think I would be seriously underwhelmed by such a purchase.

"Not sure spending over $2K to make me a bit faster is worth it"
OP's exact words.

I train on carbon wheels...does that mean I am stupid?...

I love it when new guys show up on the forums and become know it alls

you've spent way too long in this thread trying to justify a point you yourself don't even follow.

Wheel choice wouldn't be a good indicator of intelligence. OTOH, the fact that you do not seem to understand the OP's questions...

Thanks for all the input
Some of it was helpful but some is the ranting of bitter cyclists
I thought you would be a calmer group with all the exercise you do
I guess OP means original poster
My question is simply do you keep original wheels that come with bike or upgrade, if so is it worth getting something like zipp 101 or stepping up to carbon clinchers like reynold assaults

Zipp 101s and Zipps 303/Reynold Assaults serve two different purposes. 101's are the latest in wider rims. They will handle and corner batter. They also are fairly lightweight so that helps with climb. Zip 303s/Reynold Assaults are aero and probably weigh close to the stock wheels. But they will make you faster on the flats and rolling hills.

The bottim line is it worth $2000 - $2700 for that kind of improvement? With me, I train fairly hard, don't have excess weight, and had the money so I got 303's. I really like them. I've had them for five years and they have been trouble-free.

Hey, there's little about this sport that's "need". You buy whatever you want and can afford and enjoy. At some point you may cross the line and get derision from fast but poor riders, but screw em.

You would think but in fact it is quite the contrary. Cyclists are very competitive by nature.

I'd love to help you out on your wheel questions but being a wheel OEM myself I tend to remove myself from shameless self promotion, unlike many other OEM's who show up and then disappear almost as quickly.

In the end buy what makes you feel good. It's a hobby. If it requires that you make questionable sacrifices financially in other areas of your life then I might be one to question the choice, but if it doesn't then buy what makes you want to ride every time you look at it. You don't need us for justification.

"The OP thinks $2000 wheels are going to magically make him faster." Your exact words.

We all seem to agree that aero wheels make a rider marginally (i.e., "a bit") faster so I'm not sure why you choose to characterize his thoughts on this as "magic".

You are quite right the most important thing is to keep riding but wrong about the rest.
A $2K set of wheels is a waste of money for somebody who is slow. Of course its OK to buy them and ride them.
A $2K set of wheels is likely carbon. The highest end wheels are:
Stiff and light with the highest priority on speed. Stiff is generally uncomfortable for the average cyclist like the OP. Racers accept stiff for more speed because speed is the priority. Light has diminishing return for speed...once you get to 1500g for the average rider.

High end wheels when they get out of round are generally more expensive to repair. Some are strong but others are not because the priority is weight and speed. Carbon 'can' be sensitive to tire mounting. Pure racing wheels for an average cyclist is silly. You can debate it all you want...I know you build good wheels here and like to sell them and people love them. Nothing wrong with that. I have friends that ride Zipps and it is fine. But you can build a set of wheels for the OP that will be more bombproof...have a better ride...use generic spokes for lower cost repair/maintenance with super light hubs and great bearings for $500. No doubt you build those kind of wheelsets by the boatload because they are what the average cyclist is best served by and few race on the elite even amateur level. Take the remaining $1500 and buy the highest end gruppo made from any of the mfrs...or put it toward the highest end frameset taylored to the kind of riding the OP does.

oh I understand the OP question very well...I was making fun of pgjackson and his infinite knowledge of wheel and bike choice.

I think you kind of got what I was saying, but should be aware of a few things - saying that things are "silly" is just simply passing un-needed judgement. People can buy what they want to buy. No one has to "earn" nice wheels outside of earning the money to pay for them.

You've got the basics of what I do - find what I feel the best spec is for a particular customer based on their needs and wants as well as their budget. Yes, this usually results in high quality "all around'er" type of wheels....but the customer is always right. Some get it in their mind that they want something in particular and are willing to pay for it. Who am I, or anyone else, to pass judgement on that. I take the position to inform them of why I believe something may be out of line with what I feel best fits their needs, but ultimately it's their choice.

I lose a handful of customers due to this all the time, but to be honest - I don't lose any sleep over it. In general people don't like being told they are "too big" for a particular wheel - especially a high end one. It's a necessary evil though. Telling someone they are "too slow" - has no place in my business.

Example: Customer comes to me and "tells me" he wants me to put a powertap in his current rear wheel - a Mavic Cosmic Carbone (Sl I believe). I do the basic math: He is about 250 lbs, the wheel is a 20 spoke. The rim is basically an open pro with a carbon fairing attached. Flimsy. I try to explain to him that it's just not a good application. The powertap is there to be a training tool - provide good data - ad under his weight and that low of a spoke count the powertap just won't perform the best it can.

He wants it to match his front wheel and claims he hasn't had a problem with the wheel yet so it should not be a problem. I highly recommend against it.

He goes to a local shop and talks the owner into doing it for him. Owner brings it to me. I still end up building the wheel. No worries.

You know a lot more about wheels than I do to be sure and I always appreciate your perspective.
You have built up a good rep for building fine wheels and you know your stuff.
My only point is...its silly for grandpa to drive a Ferrari to the grocery store. Perhaps silly as you reminded me is the wrong word. Grandpa is better taking a bimmer 7 series to the grocery...or maybe even a 911 if he wants to get beat up a bit. But Grandpa would be more comforable in at least a 5 series bimmer. It is plenty fast enough...he will beat most of his friends to the store and and back and be more comfortable than riding in the Ferrari. His bimmer will be easier to have repaired and cost less. If he crashes it which many do down in Florida, it is one half to 1/3 the cost to replace. The same with road bike wheels.

But if what Grandpa really wants is to drive the Ferrari, then neither the BMW nor the Porsche will suffice for him regardless of your opinion of what their relative qualities should be to him.

Oh stop making sense.

"Worth it" is not for somebody else to decide.

A little of both here. In this situation I am the guy telling gramps that maybe the 7 might make more sense for his application but if he wants the ferrari then....so be it.

I don't know much about wheels, but I do know that they aren't going to make an occasional rider noticably faster. Is this a false statement? You might be an elite rider who can appreciate whatever a set of top-end wheels adds to your bike...but a rec rider is going to get pretty much nothing but bling. Just like a $2000 set of golf clubs is not going to make an occasional golfer with a wicked slice a better golfer...or a $150 pair of running shoes is not going to make a recreational runner run faster. I'm just trying to give the OP some practical advice.

There probably should be a term for non-pro riders who simply must have the most expensive items available. I've seen these guys with car enthusiasts, racquetball players, golfers, motorcyclists, photographers, audiophiles (stereo guys)...pretty much every hobby/activity has them.

Exactly. The entire golf industry is predicated on selling $700 drivers to guys who can't break a hundred if they play the ball down.
And that was my point. OP...if you are still out there, have Psimet make you some $500 dollar wheels which you will love and take the rest
and buy the best frameset you can find.

The cycling industry is just as bad as the golf industry.

Why you have to hate my golf game too?

You should be glad all those guys buy the $700 drivers. It helps keep them from being $7000 drivers (or non-existent drivers). Same with the wheels.

svtmike is right. The premium end (read high priced) end of the market subsidizes the lower cost end of the product spectrum for those of us who can't afford or won't pay the high priced item.

Once a product is good enough beyond its primary utility, the balance of the premium goes towards perceived benefits or ego-marketing.

I train boxing\kickboxing 3 times a week. At 44+, I'm like the oldest guy in class. My training partners are 18-26. I'm spotting these juniors 20 years. In the same class, there are people who buy $40 Muay Thai-specific shorts, fancy protective gear for sparring, ladies who buy PINK gloves to match their Lululemon outfits. I wear $8 polyester shorts, usually a black sleeveless cotton t-shirt or generic Gap short sleeve shirt. My gear is basic black and so are most of my boxing attire. Its easier so I don't have to think about matching colors. I usually outwork most people in class.

One lady who comes has terrible form. But she wears nice matching outfits and uses pink gloves. For some people, fashion will always be an important part of the sporting experience. Me? I look at it as a chance to challenge myself, find my personal limits and learn a practical skill. I don't want to look like a clown, neither do I want to pose. Hey if pink gloves keeps a person coming back to exercise, who am I to tell her otherwise? LOL.

lennyparis - yes, you're the Original Poster - IMO the above is some of the best advice you've received. If you want a set of wheels which will transmit your power effectively and also be comfortable for long rides, your best bet is a set of handbuilt aluminums. Rob at PSImet built my rear wheel. Outstanding craftmanship. Rob tends to be conservative - he's posted as much above - so his wheels will tend to not have the lowest spoke counts. The upside is that if a wheel ever gets damaged, which can happen in group rides, you should be able to ride it home.

As someone else posted, you might want to see if you can test ride some carbons. (Rob does build carbons.)