P51

I had the same issues. I read the Peter White article and moved my saddle back a good inch and adjusted saddle height accordingly. My knee is now slightly behind the spindle. I'm much more comfortable and the hands/neck are less of a problem, but not completely happy. I think I still need a shorter stem, but I'm giving it a little time before I try that.

cyclezen

I've resisted commenting on the 'fitter' cause all the one's I've had contact with all have it down well and would appear qualified. but would have to agree with the majority here.
But making a 3cm+ change, just like that, smacks of 'shotgun' approach.

so maybe go back to the basics yourself.

first, take down the exact measurements of your current saddle position (one set by fitter) before any adjustments. note the position of the stem.
saddle fore/aft - you can measure from the 'center' of the bar at the stem clamp, back to the saddle nose (if you're not changing bikes or saddles... otherwise measure back to where your sitbones hit THAT saddle)
now you have the fore/aft measurement from the fitter.

put a straight 'edge' across the saddle, measure from the center of the BB to the lower edge of the straight edge, along the line of the seattube/seatpost (you're not changing cranks...) that's your saddle height.

changes you make should be done only ONE CHANGE AT A TIME, and should be documented for later reference, and then ride for a day or so.

saddle height - I recommend starting with what you have set, if its close to the Lemond formula - (Inseam x 0.883 = Center of Bottom Bracket to top of seat)
here's a table: https://www.cyclemetrics.com/Pages/Do...nseamtable.htm
inseam is actual to the sitbone, not a pants leg length...
before setting fore/aft to KOPS, put a level on top of straight edge which is on saddle and level the saddle. don;t worry about your 'junk' at the moment, you can adjust for that later...
start with KOPS (lotza debate on that, which I won;t enter, but its a good start point...)
KOPS is - drop a plumb line from the TIBIAL TUBOROSITY (NOT front of Knee Cap) and move saddle fore/aft until Tibial Tuborosity is centered over pedal spindle.
what is the Tibial Tuborosity? here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberosity_of_the_tibia

IMPORTANT: MAKE SURE BIKE IS LEVEL when dropping the plumb line, many stationary trainers position the bike off level- many floors, especially garages, are NOT LEVEL - gotta be level! off level will give very erroneous results by as much as 1 cm!

don;t mess with stem yet, go ride.

weight on hands when on bar top at bend ... if you are solidly 'pushing' a gear (not any easy spin and not 'big meat; either) when you push the gear your weight on your hands should now be on the slightly heavier side of 'comfortable', almost 'light'. In other words, the drive of your legs largely counters the down force of your torso (when you're pedaling with some effort).

If it feels 'very heavy', then instead of gripping bars at palm, raise so that your finger knuckles are on top of bar. This approximates raising the bar.
CAVEAT: do all this in some 'safe' place, like a large empty parking lot, where you don;t have to worry about other things.

If it's still heavy, then go to the fingertips...

If it's still heavy then move the saddle back 5mm - repeat...
you can do the move one more time, but I normally never recommend more than 1 cm back from KOPS... without stepping back and considering what else is factoring in...

if' you're good with the 'feel' at any point then try to get the bars to that point...
a more 'competitive' position will be lower

bar distance forward - a good start point for a classic Human proportion is (not torso short or long), not surprisingly, the Lemond frame (or maybe should be called 'Da Vinci'...) formula = .67 x inseam, this is measured from the saddle nose to the CENTER of the handlebar, at diameter center, at the stem clamp...
so for example - me - 88.75 cm inseam, formula for me says 78cm saddle height -BING! long before his formula, in early 70's I settled up at 78cm.
bar distance from saddle nose? formula says .... 59 cm - BING !!!, been there for 40 yrs...
my bar drop has been at 9.25 cm and continues there...
at KOPS for 40 yrs
riding to race for about 34 of those years...
still getting in plenty miles after all these years (7.5K to 9K miles/yr)...
used to ride 58 & 59s, now ride 57s, but still use same numbers for setup...

but this is the internet, and given that, I don't really know you.

the formulas are start points, and everyone varies from there to some degree. And injuries, anomalies and riding intent makes further changes. But for performance road cycling, these are good basic start points.

Hulley

Thanks cyclezen! Looks like I've got some work to do. I have all my measurements written down but I'll double check them to make sure i'm reading them right. The funny thing is the fitter wanted to move my seat even more forward but he didnt have a zero offset post! I've tried the Lemond system but i could have easily mis-measured myself, I tried to do my own measurements by myself and I'm sure I botched something up. I want so badley to be comfortable its driving me crazy. I'm not even thinking about the Lynskey until I can get comfortable and do some serious miles. If I cant do that on my CR1, I dont need a Lynskey.

clink83

The bad fitting advice in this thread is out of control. You don't move your saddle to take pressure off your hands. The only time you adjust your saddle height/setback is to get the proper relationship between your knees and cranks and to get the proper leg bend, then adjust the stem reach/height to whatever is comfy. You shouldn't EVER adjust your saddle position for hand pain!

Hulley

Any suggestions? I'm obviously having a hard time with this issue. The fitter and I tried mutiple stem lengths/angles but no matter where the bars are, I fall forward pretty hard. I couldnt hold myself up if my life depended on it. Moving the saddle back just "seems" logical. Of course too much in any direction in counter productive but what I'm expierencing is just plain wrong.

fa63

And when you do this, combined with an appropriate amount of saddle to bar drop, you more often than not end up taking pressure of the hands because of proper weight distribution / hip angle.

jrobe

Of course, you knew it wouldn't be long before the KOPS fitters with the plumb bobs would show up with their misinformed advice. I don't claim to be a professional fitter but, again, the Peter White article has worked perfect for me for years and seems very logical. https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

One of his primary criteria is throwing out KOPS and using saddle fore-aft position to provide the most comfortable balance point of the body which greatly effects the amount of weight supported by the hands.

AndyK 

Right! And, like the White article says, for the average proportioned rider, KOPS might work fine. For everyone else, it's better to balance yourself without the plumb bob!

cyclezen

in a world of grays, Black and White usually doesn't get the job done...
Yes, saddle position is very important for the function of the motor, but how is it done here?
https://www.trainingbible.com/joesblo...-position.html
seems to work for him and quite a few others...
and what is the 'proper leg bend' ? hip angle? yes, those are all factors, important ones. YOu can measure hip angle and anything else and all that is just another reference point from which to start.
Hip angle is important, but also very hard to measure properly - so not a self-done process.
you could also get on a Respiratory Calorimeter and Power meter combo and tune like the big boys do
I'm still saving up for my setup ...
position is fully relational
all things being equal, I'm sure the positions of Cancellara and Leipheimer are very different and neither would be their best with the other's position (adjusted relatively for their sizes).

as for the Whities, same response - don;t throw out the need for optimum leg performance and preservation of joints just to over-compensate for other areas of issue.
plumb is a simple tool like the measuring tape.
with a cleat-over-spindle or close, means close to KOPS protects the knee joint. it's not B & W, its a good place to start.
put the cleat somewhere else, and everything else will change also.

I haven't played with cleat-at-Midsole yet, but I will... I have plenty of shoes to screw with and it seems like an interesting idea to play with.


Youz guyz have SPECIFIC recommendations for getting overall fit for a performance ride - do tell

clink83

Its Peter White vs the world. There isn't a major fit system that doesn't start with setting up the saddle. If you have too much weight on your hands, you either have too long of a reach, bars are too low, or your weak and cant support yourself properly. If your frame is the proper size, with your saddle more or less adjusted to give you KOPS you just need to adjust the reach/drop to suit your fitness and flexability. If you have "balance" problems your frame is either too small or too big.

Instead of getting bad advice from people on the internet, the OP should revisit his fitter with the problems he's having, or find another one who will do a good job. Bike fit over the internet doesn't work.

Try to do a plank, and see how long you can keep a straight spine. If you break form in >30 seconds, that very well may be your issue.

oban_kobi

Hulley, have you considered your frame might be too big for you? Particularly the top tube length. If you don't think it is, you may just have weak core muscles.

Hulley

Ok, here is a crappy pic I just took. I'm sure the frame is not too big, I ride a small CR1 which is a 52cm frame. I can hold a plank much longer than 30 seconds.

Sorry for the crappy pic, I only had a 10sec timer and it took me several tries to get a decent shot. Ignore my ugly mug.

Sienna19

Hand pain and numbness do not have to be a result of too much weight supported and chasing it through a fitter and a bunch of internet experts is an endless chase. Sensitive pressure points don't need much pressure to pinch nerves and constrict blood flow. I, too, ride motorcycles without issue, but cycling is excruciating. Working with a sports medicine therapist to dial in the ergonomics of the controls made way more progress than the bike fitters did. That and a pair of gloves with padding in exactly the right place (four attempts).

Trouble

And you're perpetuating it with even more bad advice. Core cannot keep you riding, it's balance.

You got it.

When a fitter takes out a plum bob and goniometer - RUN - RUN - RUN!
It's a sure sign they don't know what their doing. They are applying standardized based formulas and measurements in a static setting for every person as if they were the same.
Read articles from Steve Hogg and you'll get a better understanding of the relationship of dynamic fitting for each individual person and any structural asymmetries they have...and we all have them.

How ridiculous...and misinformed can one person be? (Rhetorical question)

I've ridden with so many people who haven't done a sit up in years and they ride all day long and fast. Core strength has nothing to do with supporting you while riding. It is helpful at the performance level.
You should only bare enough weight on the bars to control the bike. Anymore and you'll fatigue much quicker. It's about phasic muscles being used for postural purpose.

"...the OP should revisit his fitter with the problems he's having, or find another one who will do a good job"
This cracks me up. "or find another one who will do a good job"...this kills me...OMG! I'm on the floor laughing at the ridiculousness of this statement. The OP just paid for a "PRO" fitting, now what is he suppose to get? A "Super Pro" Fitting?

clink83

You don't know what you're talking about. Core strength is everything, for every sport. If you have a weak core, when your core muscles fatigue your back will bend, which will cause back pain, slumping on the bike, and you wont be able to stabilize your hips properly, which will weaken your pedal stroke. If you have weak glutes(part of your core muscles) you will end up with IT band problems, and it can cause your kneecaps to track wrong in the long run. If your abs are weak and your back is strong(like many cyclists) you will end up with poor posture and back pain. If you visit any respectable cycling, running, or athletic coach/physical therapist they will all recommend core strength as the key to injury prevention. Your core is the foundation of your body, if it's weak everything else will. Balance starts and ends with a strong core.

This is the problem with BF, people on here are free to spew stuff that flies in the face of conventional scientific/sports meds wisdom.

clink83

Just because someone is doing a "pro fit" doesn't mean they are a professional fitter.

cyclezen

Ok, but youprolly won't like what I'm gonna say...

There's really not anything which stands out and screams "Fix Me!"
except
why did you buy a 52? and why a Scott Cr1?
You're at least 5' 9", maybe taller ? how tall are you?

OK, smaller frames are in, and can mostly be made to fit.
But
Your body proportion is close to avg, but you're more towards the 'long torso' side of body type.
Scott CR1 specs, 52 cm, some very important ones, 74.5 deg seat tube (very steep for a road bike), 20.9" effective TT (very short for a road bike)

with a 74.5 seattube, there's just no way someone your size is gonna have a good range of adjustment for a road position. 74.5 is for a much shorter/shorter leg person than you, say someone 5'6" to 5'4".
I don;t think you can get the seat BACK far enough with a std offset seatpost - forget moving forward...
For you, a frame with the more middlin ST angle of 73 to (73.5 likely on a 54 cm) will give better adjustment range. And those angles would be on a 54/55 frame.
How can I say this ? the diff. between a 74.5 and 73 angle ST, at, say, 74 cm seat height is about 1 INCH further forward! Which is a huge amount to compensate adjustment for.

Cr1 in size 52 has a 20.9" effective TT, in fact every size in the CR1 design is on the very short side of TT - for long torso, this is hell.
so now your arms/upper body is confined back towards a forward projecting seattube/seat
to get this whole arrangement in better perspective, you'd prolly have to get a stem which would be another 1.5 to 2 inches longer - this can't happen since 130mm is about as long as stems mostly come.
look at your arm position, especially where the elbows fall, now look at these guys, at their 'on the hood' arm positions.
https://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/...or_PhSptsm.jpg
and
https://velonews.competitor.com/wp-co...ng12809024.jpg
and especially here, BMC
https://blog.firstendurance.com/wp-co..._0058.JPG.jpeg
you have just about every rider type position, even down to the hunched shoulders on the guy in the rear of BMC...
one thing in common for all - they have their arms and their elbows projecting forward to a supported, but flexible triangle.
now look again at your position - you'd need at least another 2 or more inches forward projection to get to the same place.

did you try other bikes? other sizes?
did you or anyone look at the CR1 geometry and make a conscious decision that this bike would be a good fit for you and your specs? I can't see how...
pushing your seat forward on this bike would be the last thing I would consider...

is this the cause of your hand problems? I don;t think there's one cause. I think all this stuff conspires to cause the issues to focus to your numbing hands.

Small things , cumulatively make a huge difference.
nuff said. my rec, go try some other bikes in 54 with a 73.5 to 73 seattube, just to get a feel for the difference.
everyone is different, but I'll put money that there are way better bikes to fit you.

Hulley

I'm actually 5'8", I chose a CR1 because it's supposedly a little more comfortable that say an Addict or Tarmac. Part of me thinks the bike is a little small but this is really my first road bike. I had a CAAD9-5 for a very brief time (a 52cm also) and I had pretty bad hand/shoulder pain so I sold it after a few weeks. The bike shop wasnt a whole lot of help in trying to size me, I rode ALOT of bikes and unfortunatly I bought the CR1 without really riding one. You can only get so much out of a test ride in a parking lot, and I chose the CR1 due to reviews and component package for the money. My next bike will be a little bigger now that I'm a little more familer with myself and bikes.
I'm gonna take your advice and go try out some different sizes.
I really appreciate everyone taking the time to comment and post links for me to check out. I take everyones comment seriously and will keep thead informed of my progress.
Thanks
Steve

Trouble

Now you're catch'in on. I'm starting to think you didn't pick up on my facetiousness....what do I have to do?

***Put your back, arse and feet up against the wall, bend over at the waist, keeping your arse against the wall, until your back is flat...what happens? You fall forward. Now move your feet out 1 foot and do the same thing. What happens? Doh! Did you engage any core muscles? No more questions for this witness your Honor...

As I mentioned, core strength has benefits at the performance level, it helps to stabilize you when you are hammering, it does have benefits in other athletic activities.....BUT - it's not what keeps you balanced on the bike. If core strength was what kept you from falling forward on the bike during rides, we all would be doing shorter rides.

Campag4life

Excellent post!

cyclezen

so the hand pain is a chronic thing, spanning other bikes...
maybe try to ride a flatbar bike, like a hybrid for enough miles to see if that produces the hand numbness
I'm NOT suggesting you get a hybrid or a flat bar, regular road is is much better with more position choices; but the flat bar bike forces a hand position which should tell you more of what you need to know.

Bike road tests around the block tell you mostly nothing, other than if it's really not even close.
But trying some 54s will certainly show a difference from the current CR1.
Best is to know your measurements and the general recommendations for frame specs that will fit those measurements. Then get bike specs and make choices before actually shopping. Components are important, but the frame is what pulls it all together and makes the difference.
You prolly already know about the competitivecyclist.com online fit calc. It's quite good and offers a great start point for considerations. And almost all new bikes (and some archives) have frame Geometry specs online.
Way different from BITD, when we ran around with tape measures, measuring each frame...
Doing Competitivecyclist fit calc will even give you some ideas on what you might be able to do with the current CR1.
But if you haven't put much miles on the CR1, you should get a good return on it, should you sell now, height of season.
Best of luck

Hulley

I'm looking at my fit chart and he lowered my saddle .5cm and moved it forward 35mm. Bar reach went from 52.5 to 49cm. Raised the bars 9mm and knee angle from 32 degrees to 34 degrees. I have a saddle to bar drop of 23mm.


Opps, correction. Saddle forward 25mm, stem was shortened 10mm.

Hulley

I wouldnt say the hand pain is chronic. I really only put about 60 miles on the CAAD. I bought it to help with my motoX but died quickly because I didnt know what I was doing and didnt know anybody else that rode bikes. I didnt even make and adjustments to the CAAD other than saddle and I still didnt know what I was doing.

lazerzxr

The only real way to know that is from an xray looking for it, a bike fitter can only judge based on what they see. More likely you have less flexibility on one side which gives the appearance of a short tibia. If he has shimmed you to take account of it then the flexibility issue wont be solved and you'll end up where you started

lazerzxr

Also bike fits are over rated, go to 3 different "pro" fitters and you will get 3 different fits, all completely different and all will tell you that theres is "right" I gave up paying for fits years ago and spent the money on some better tools to adjust things myself. Ive never been more comfortable on my bikes