I'm finding that very hilly courses aren't as amenable to my HR based workouts - the steep parts are fine as I just go slower, but the downhills are often too steep and curvey to maintain the target HR (or power for all you powermeter guys).

I'm finding that the flats are a better place to pace - you can go plenty hard on them as well.

Anybody finding this?

(Of note, I have no difficulty climbing steep hills - I routinely do one around here that's 21% for quite a ways.)

Well it depends on what I'm training that day...

If the workout is longer FTP type intervals then I will look for a flat stretch of road...If I'm doing V02max stuff then flat or hill doesn't really matter as long as the climb last the length of the interval...

If the goal is an endurance ride with a normalized power in a certain range then I don't worry about it as long as at the end of the day I am in that range...

It depends on the area, but around here I can still stay in my target power through the hills, it just requires really watching my Garmin on the uphills and using my 53-11 on the downhills quite often. I do plan my routes differently when I'm doing intervals though, making sure I find a nice 8 mile stretch for FTP and a hill that's 3-5 minutes long for VO2

Use a trainer.

I know it can be miserable, but if you are targeting a specific power or HR zone, there is no better way to do it than on your trainer. Uphills often will force you to push your power/HR above the desired zone, and the accompanying downhill will leave you below.

The last 200 meters of the top of Mount Diablo is a surveyed 20% grade. It is extremely tough and 12% for any distance is very hard. If you can routinely climb 21% grades for quite a ways, you have nothing to worry about and should instructing others on how to train.

I live in a hilly area and train with power. Climbing at a target power is easier for me to maintain power and my climbing FTP is higher than my flat to rolling FTP which is higher than my time trial FTP. IMO, most racers find this to be the case. I do climbing power intervals and flat to rolling for just this reason. And when I first used my power meter the first thing I noticed was that after cresting a hill, my power would drop but my HR would stay up. So to hold power, I had to shift into a bigger gear and focus mentally on keeping the power up.

If I climb a long steep hill for 20 to 40 minutes, that is the workout goal and descending is my rest period before the next effort.

I cannot climb 21% hills except for a couple of hundred meters.

Just because I can climb a 0.5-1.0 mile stretch of 21% doesn't mean that I'm not redlining way above my target HR/power range when I'm doing it.

Also, as mentioned, the descents suck for target HR/power training.

There are guys that train in the Rockland/Westchester area, maintaining a relatively consistent workload. That means going pretty hard on the downhills, steadily.

I can't do that but I'm not a disciplined training type person. Other riders can do it.

What this does is teach you that:
- you really can use big chainrings (53 etc, versus compacts)
- descents are a prime place for working
- climbing is overrated Maintaining 400-500-600w load on a climb is easy (until I blow). Doing 250w on a descent is hard.

Not if you have a nice head wind
Gotta love fall...I swear sometimes descending back into the valley here if I didn't pedal I would coast to a standstill...

Another vote for trainer. If you really want to stick to your program's stricter parameters, they're the way to go IMO.
I have a few longer hills and a few flat stretches in my region that I use for the looser workouts and for recovery rides, but when it comes to the workouts with narrow parameters...

And I don't think it's miserable at all. It's a lot less miserable than working your butt off, holding your perfect/fluid form through a sweet, sweet burn... and then having to stop because of some stupid red light.

I just recently started using a powertap and completely agree with you. I did a power workout last weekend 20 min @ 200w, 10 min @ 230W, 5 min @ 270W, 3 min at 300W, and then backwards. I found that I had a really hard time not resting on the downhills as well as seeing the consequences of standing up and throwing down some watts to hammer over a roller when there was no way to rest afterwards b/c I had to keep the power up. I also found that including hills in these workouts have really helped to inform me of when my cadence/ power ratio is at it's best.

I hope you understand that training with power is more complicated than just targeting some average power output and then going out to increase said power output over time by doing the same thing again and again.

Meaning, it helps having a specific goal (win a race, do some course in a certain time, win the TdF, etc.) and then backtracking, breaking down the big goal into modules so it's not so grandiose and intangible. And then breaking down the modules into smaller, more manageable modules (like weeks or a month) and fill that with a specific training schedule including, diet and rest/recover.

It's hard to call it training IMO if you just have a HR or power meter and just ride around with them.

Rollers are fine for me. Trouble is, once you're over 5% descent and thrown in some turns, 250+ watts will have me going wayyyy too fast for safety on those curvey and sometimes hairpin turns.

I don't have a problem whatsoever motivating to hold my wattage/HR up on a descent if it's safe. Just gear up and spin it out. It's not a motivation issue - it's a safety issue. Doing hairpin turns at 25+mph with my bike handling skills is a bad idea.

OP, I've found just the opposite. It's much easier for me to do my workouts on the hills. I can just go faster or slower, depending on what power level I'm targeting.

On the flats, there are two problems. One, I hit a lot of stop signs and stop lights. Two, for some reason, it's hard for me to maintain a power level. I get up to some target level, but after a few minutes, I've fallen off. This doesn't happen on the hills.

You might try braking while still pedaling on the downhills. I do it on a 4 corner loop I ride and it allows me to keep the power steady while safely going around the corners. No reason you couldn't do it on a hill as well.

Also select different routes.

Have you read Racing and Training with a Power Meter? In it it says that on long tempo type days that as long as your average wattage is in your wattage zone you are fine. So, if you coast some on the descents don't worry about it.

In this type of situation where I need to control my speed, I just switch to doing a S1 or S2 high cadence workout going downhill til I can resume pedaling as normal. I know it's not the same thing even though I can get my HR up this way, but I figure it's better than just coasting along.

I doubt the pro riders avoid hills to get in better shape. You might be seeing the trees instead of the forest.

I actualy agree with you - the INCLINES are no problem - even near-ideal. If the world were a big uphill only ride, I'd have no complaints for training.

It's the inevitable descents that screw it all up.

Captain obvious to the rescue!

(I'm on a Chris Carmichael plan and may start a different power-based plan in the spring)

Obvious solution: modify your workout. Otherwise ride your brakes or ride somewhere else. Seems pretty simple to me.

So what are you "training" for then?

Most hills around the world have descents. Maybe just learn to descent better and faster.

I agree, I can never sustain a constant heartrate on hilly rides, flat rides are much better.