Food stamps? ...just a guess.

I think I understand where your're coming from with this. Although the differences in radial deflection is nearly the same (and presumed to be infinitesimally smaller than what we can sense), what isn't the same is which vibrations are transmitted by the structure. A structure that transmits the road buzz is perceived to be stiffer than one that does not.

Don't bother Mike...not worth it.

Stiffness is proportional to resonate frequency is the point. That piece of paper Banzai spoke of is the essence that he dismisses Its the maginitude of a piece of paper vibrating at a high versus low frequency that telegraphs more vibration...small amplitude, high frequency acceleration/deceleration into the rider.

Agree. Believe this will be the consensus Nick.

okay. i won't bother Mike

That would be a massive, ginormous dick move. To even suggest that, after she's spent so much time and trusted him with thousands of dollars of wheels, is shameful.

hahahaha. You're easy to stir up.

i wouldnt' feel obligated. was the point to make a sale? no. this sort of thing works both ways regardless of a sale.

Spending a lot of time in sales has left me with a healthy respect of the time and efforts of knowledgeable people, 'specially when it's these very things that put food on their table. I take it you don't. That's okay - the world needs dicks, too, I guess.

If he's going to walk away without making any purchase ("hey, that was a fun experiment,") that's one thing... but walking away and saying, "gee, now that I've learned a lot from this helpful person, I think I'll take what I've learned from her efforts and make a purchase elsewhere," yeah - dick move.

This and also the same information from campag4life is established scientific and engineering fact. The 24/28 build with Super Sapims will feel a lot like 20/24 using C X-Rays. Sure as the sun rises in the East. If I were a seeking stiffness as a main driver, I would consider an even stiffer spoke than the C X-Rays. That would cost weight but stiff means stiff.

Welcome to the club. Those who draw his criticism appear to be quite an elite group even if I do say so myself.

If you want to consider yourselves elite, even when you're on the wrong end of the bell curve, more power to you.

i just wrote a semi humorous and scathing reply (not to the quoted post), but i chickened out at the last moment and posted this instead. i almost hit the "save" button but thought i might regret it. so all i have to show for my effort is this piece of drivel.

Says you.

Well done. Let's see, we've got the clothes and the watch, what colors for the car and the wife's gown...

Hahahaha, I'm in sales as well and I understand exactly what whyfi is saying here. The fact that she has spent so much time and allowing me to use her products for free has earned my business. Even if I wasn't inclined to follow through with using her, I still wouldn't built up the wheels myself. I'm somewhat mentally ******** when it comes to putting things together.

This may be the source of the stiffness misunderstanding: https://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/super-spokes. Sapim clearly says higher spoke tension gives higher spoke stiffness. Since they suggest that the Super spokes can be taken to higher tension, QED they can be taken to higher stiffness. BUT there are two things wrong with this. First the marketing guys at Sapim got it wrong. More tension does not equal more stiffness. And second we already tighten spokes up to the upper limit the rims allow. So even though the spokes could take higher tension, the rim can't. Even if the more tension, more stiffness relationship were true, it is out of reach. Maybe Jude can't be criticized for believing Sapim's marketing hype, but she should know better about how much tension the rim can take. Ask Psimet. He pretty much agrees with 120 kgf as the safe upper tension limit of the rim, and that is what most good builders tighten to.

@rpenmanparker-Dont take this the wrong way, but you are turning me off to my own thread man. I think you are genuinely trying to help me and I really do appreciate that. But, I dont know your history with cycling or building wheels. I dont know what it is you do for a living. Maybe you rode in the tour de france. maybe you were or are a mechanic for a team or shop. Fact of the matter is I just finished saying that jude explained to me that she feels this would be a good and safe set up for me. We have been working together since day one. She has all the info and feedback. if she is wrong, then we consider it another experiment and make the changes.. This whole experience has been fantastic and hopefully others have learned from what i have posted from feedback, but if they haven't I know that I have. She has a fine reputation and I trust that she will take care of me. I have no doubt that jude has enough experience to know how far she can tension a rim or spoke. Then again, if she is wrong, I know she will fix it. I'm not going to question her suggestion at this point.

No offense taken. I wish you every success obtaining just what you want in the new wheels.

Live long and prosper.

I completely agree with this. Also, I sense that the OP wants a solid well constructed wheel that will last him. Building yourself sounds great if starting a hobby but not the most sensible route to quickly get a high quality wheel built.

OP - I think it's probably time to tune out the back and forth and just focus on working this through with Jude. Your experience makes me wish I lived a little further north.

For your final build I would add a suggestion to look at a different option for the rubber. I recently switched to tubeless after cycling the last 15 years on tubes. Will never go back to tubes in my tires. I am currently running Hutchinson intensives 700 X25's and run them at 80-85 psi. (always ran 23's at 110-120 PSI in the past) on my light 27 MM deep aero aluminum wheels 1360 G.

There is a remarkable difference in the smoothness of the ride, and any bike handles better with more rubber on the ground (lower PSI). Run them with 2 ounces of stans sealant in each tire and I have went 2000 miles no flats. The lower pressure and sealant really works and I would recommend it to anyone .

I personally am a bigger guy (205 lb) and the lower pressure really works to smooth out the road.

Don't worry, can use tubeless on any wheel with stan's tape and a tubeless stem and tubeless specific tires.

I also have new 50 MM X 23 MM carbon wheels on order, but on mine new ones I am getting the rims with no holes on the inside except for the presta valve, so I won't even need tape on my new ones, but that isn't necessary, you can use tape on any rim.

tubeless rocks

Maybe if you are buying Chinese carbon rims.

As an example we have tested open mold rims from Mega and they failed at a hair above 300kgf. That is WELL ABOVE the limit on any spoke.

I can't speak to the rims the OP has settled on but I'm willing to bet there are no issues.


Mango with blue bar wrap. Trust me on this. It will POP!

Super Spokes have a minimum recommended tension of about 95 kgf on the front, no sweat, but they spec a minimum tension of 80 kgf on the non-drive side. With King hubs on alloy wheels (tension ratios change a small amount with ERD changes), that's going to equate to about 155 kgf on the drive side. I don't see that being a viable thing for most aluminum rims, and there are plenty of hubs which can't do this (I believe Tune hubs spec a max of 100 kgf). CX Rays work very very well. Lasers work outstandingly well at 1/3 the price, but they are more time consuming to work with than CX Rays due to windup.