Just to be clear, you are criticizing rpen for being right. If you read Sapim's tech sheet...I know you are not a tech guy...they have a super spoke lower range for tension at 950 N...even lower for the rear wheel. This is 'ordinary' tension for a low spoke count wheel. 950N = 96.0 kgf. Most low spoke high end wheels are built in the 100-130 kgf range. Further, it rightly states in the spec sheet that the rim mfr's recommendation for upper end spoke tension should be observed. Of course this is correct. In summary, spoke tension for a rim should be based upon the rim and not the spoke.

Further, as rpen correctly stated, increased spoke tension does not manifest a stiffer wheel. So just be clear....your wheel build with super spokes will be more flexy than Sapim's higher gauge spoke offerings. This is basic physics and make no mistake. You may or may not like that. Some guys...like me who don't like an uber stiff...but a stiff wheel...may think the ss's are the sweet spot...but maybe not a high watt guy who likes their wheels to be truck axle stiff.
In layman's parlance...maybe this will make sense to you....when you build a 24 spoke front wheel with the thinnest spokes available (as advertised) it won't manifest high stiffness...over and above the stiffness of the rim.

Dave...can you explain how you manage wind up with a low section spoke like the Laser..other than lubricating the spoke thread? Do you restrain the base of the spoke somehow when tightening the nipple?...pliers?...tape spokes to clock/index wind up etc? Any tips to share?
thanks

just to make myself clear, I am not criticizing him or anyone. What I am saying is that I have been working hand in hand with Jude, who is in fact an expert wheel builder. We have been working together to come to the best build for me. We got to this point by communicate what I want out of my wheel and by evaluating the feedback I bring to her after each test. With that, she can put together what she think will fit into my perfect all around wheel. Maybe it wont be the stiffest wheel possible, but I'm hoping it to be just right for me. And as I said, if it turns out that they are not what they seemed to be, she will swap them out for me.

C4L, perhaps I can be of some assistance. For me the trick with DT Revolutions really was mostly lubrication, but in combination with a spoke prep. Jeremy Parfait of Alchemy shared his secret with me a couple of years ago. Besides a spoke prep for keeping the nipple from loosening, some lubrication is necessary to give freest possible rotation of the nipple. I was trying to use machine oil, because it is easily applied, but it didn't work very well. Perhaps the viscosity was too low for it to stay put in under the high rotational stress. Jeremy recommended axle grease (Phil's?) instead. Voila! Much easier final tensioning and later on readjustment. Of course the well known techniques of over turning the nipple a bit and then backing off must also be used on every spoke adjustment. And several times during the final truing I take the wheel out of the jig and radially compress it against the floor (caution to protect the wheel rim and the floor) by supporting my weight on it. I do this in about 12 separate compressions as I rotate the wheel about 30 deg each time. As you get close to true, your adjustments are, of course, smaller each time, and the windup is similarly smaller. So at the end it is reiteratively compressing the wheel to allow the spokes to unwind and touch up the trueness, back and forth, finishing with the last compression when there should be no more spoke unwinding apparent and no change is trueness. I also lubricate the outside of the head of the nipple so it can slip when the wheel is compressed and the spoke can easily unwind. Sounds harder than it really is. Since starting the lubrication and this method, I have never observed spoke unwinding (ping!) upon mounting up for a first ride and never had to retrue afterwards. I don't know how much worse Super Spokes (round, not aero) would be.

I hope this helps. I am also interested in hearing what Dave N has to say about this. One never has too much help with these problems.

You stated that earlier. It maybe your thread but what you wrote about rpen 'turning you off' wasn't cool. He is right and your wheel builder is wrong is the point....IF....you communicated properly what she told you which comports with the 'false claim' on Sapim's site about tension increasing wheel stiffness. Wheel stiffness is a function spoke count and spoke cross-section and not tension. It also transcends spoke material especially if in the stainless family which many Sapim spokes are.
I have no doubt she will make it right for you if it isn't right with the ss's.

I find it funny that someone who advocates parasitic behavior lectures others on what's "not cool." Heh.

Sorry you found my reply to be not cool. Fact is it was turning me off because I found it frustrating. Wish I could say I didn't feel that way but I did. Obviously enough people have mentioned this as a concern. I will be following up with Jude and see what she says one more time and also with my LBS to see what they say.

I guess I find it frustrating because it confuses me. When I get an answer from 4 different people all using technical terms that all sound different to me stresses me out and makes me question which direction to go. Jude has earned my trust and it irritates me that I'm now questioning her recommendation.

So here is something that confuses me and im hoping one of you can clarify this for me to help me better understand where you'll are coming from:
Are you saying the super spoke doesn't sound like it will be a good choice because you think it will be not stiff on a 24/28 2x?

Or

Are you saying the super Sapim might be a good choice for me but it won't be the stiffest choice available? Because j want a stiff wheel, but not sure if I want the stiffest wheel possible. This is where I out my trust in Jude to set me up with a wheel that she feels would be best based off of the feedback I gave her. For all I know, maybe one of the wheels I tested was super stiff and my feedback told her that I'm not needing the stiffest option.

Bianchi, forget about the chatter here. Just work with Jude. I'm sure she can get you exactly the wheels you want. If you continue to pay attention to the chatter here, you'll never place your order because you'll continue to question it. Go place your order and don't come back to this thread until you have them!

+1, Exactly my first thought when I saw the pics.

+1

I could be wrong, but to my reading of what you said that Jude said (obviously I could be wrong), it sounded like Jude was telling you that you didn't need the Super Sapims but that if you really wanted them she would build the wheel that way and if you didn't like them she rebuild the wheel with other spokes. I didn't see it stated directly anywhere, but I'm pretty sure she's telling you that you won't feel an extra 60 grams of spoke weight.

No i won't feel the extra. BUT I have spent tons of money on getting the overall weight (that's bike just sitting there in my garage) down. I have purchased Lots of items that will have no benefit to my actual riding. Lightening my bike is a hobby in itself, so if I can lose the extra grams without effecting performance on the wheels, now would be the time to do it. I would not be trying the drop the weight because I think the minimal weight will make me faster. It would be to drop overall weight of bike.

I hope you won't mind me chiming back in in a sincere effort to help you out. Yes, forget about all the technical stuff. Why? Here is what I NOW see. Because being technically correct is not your goal. (I finally got it!) Being comfortable and happy with your choice, your builder, and your wheels when they are done (no matter what they consist of) is what you are after. You have made a quality hub choice and an excellent rim choice. So it comes down to the spokes. You are bulletproof! She will build and rebuild these wheels for you with different spokes (the only remaining variable) until you say, "Perfect!" What more could you ask for?

The ongoing problem here has been the two common personality types (rational and emotional) not recognizing each other. Please don't blame us "rationals" for responding the way we are programmed. By the same token we should have recognized what you really were after a bit earlier. All good now.

I repeat my last wishes for you. I hope you have great success getting the wheels you really want. In fact I know you will. And the live long and prosper stuff was also sincerely offered.

Robert

Revolutionary!

He turned this great thread into an argument about finances, ethics, and now spoke choice.

Rpen-thank you very much for that. That helps put it in perspective.

41 Heresy. Slay the heretics and burn the witches!

Oh and Bianchi, you seem like a good guy. Thanks for not even considering making a d!ck move.:thumb:

I think rpen's last response is right on. Also I will write a small defense of Jude which will make you feel better. There are lots of engineers here. We see things based upon our training. Psimet knows the truth..he is a mechanical engineer by training...and the principle teacher of wheel tech on this site.

What Rob/Psimet says about wheel stiffness:
Rim and Spoke Count have thehighest impact by far. Lacing in last. The spoke gauge second to last. Thespoke gauge impacts the stiffness in that the tensions needed get closer toyield when in small diameter wires than larger, but assuming you are well shyof yield - as long as the materials are similar then the spoke carries the sameload the same way and spoke itself isn't as much of a factor.

Thread formation, head formation, lacing method and tension balance have a muchhigher impact on a spoke life and durability.

For wheel stiffness though - rim and spoke count.


Those are Rob's sage words. In summary Nick, you are in good shape. Why? Aside from Jude's willness to build you what you want...because at the end of the day, smaller spoke diameter and slightly higher tension will not dramatically change your wheel stiffness. Wheel stiffness as Rob wrote above in another thread confims that the rim choice and spoke count are the greatest contributes to overall stiffness. Unless you like an uber stiff wheel, I believe you will be happy with the ss's...and if not Jude will make it right for you. Can't ask for any more than that.

Let's not get carried away here. Her recommendation was for the CX-Ray spokes. Whether she failed the absolute technical litmus test or not, her recommendation was sound. If anything, you should save her the time and hassle by cancelling the order for the Super Spokes.

Agreed. Jude has her act together. Go with what she's recommending. Not everyone has a wheel builder like that in his back yard. Just go with it.

As to managing windup, I use 3-in-1 oil on threads and at the rim (later found out that this is the same technique that the guy who invented Spoke Prep now uses). On carbons with black brass nipples, I use boat trailer axle grease. The finish on the black brass nipples binds terribly against carbon, I don't know why. The fingers on my left hand have calluses that you would not believe from pinching spokes. There is always some visual reference on the spoke to see it turn, your technique with the spoke wrench counts, and of course destressing thoroughly after every round of tensioning is necessary. All of these things are very possible for an occasional builder but become smoother when you are building dozens of wheels a week. A properly built wheel shouldn't "ping" when you first install a tire. I do use a locking compound on the non-drive spokes, simply because though it's not cheap (Loc-Tite green, $50 for 50ml), it is a defense against something dumb happening and it is an effective corrosion resistant.

One very big side benefit of CX Rays is that there is no windup. I can not be convinced that that is not a big element of why bladed spokes have become so prominent.

Dave, i agree with everything you said. I have found that the grease is a little better than the oil on aluminum nipples too. And don't forget not everyone knows you mean the bladed spokes don't wind up PROVIDING you grip them with a slotted tool made for the job while twisting the nipple.

Thanks Dave. Appreciate you sharing your experience. I was asking more in the context of spokes that are prone to wind up....like the Sapim Laser...see below. Sapim suggests using 'pliers' to stablize the spoke during tigtening. I wonder if you tape the spoke to prevent marring? Yes the naked eye can detect spoke wind up as you say by the assymetry of the spoke.
PS: carbon as you likely know has very poor abrasion resistance and high coef. of friction if machined in particular when abraded and likely why the binding issue with nipples.

Also keep in mind that she was trying to work with my budget. After testing for a Couple weeks I sold a few more items and was able to raise my limit. She did and still says that she doesn't think it is necessary but if I'm looking to drop the overall weight of the wheel then she recommends and support s this as a good and safe choice. Its not like I am ignoring her recommendation to accomplish my own desires.

I'm not a production builder producing large numbers of wheels, but I have used pliars with rubber tubing over the jaws for gripping Laser spokes (to avoid windup) during final tensioning and it works well.

...And I'm an oil on rims and threads guy.

Im not a profesional wbeel builder, but I build a few set here and there. To help me control wind up I use a sharpie marker. I put a short line to the outside of the spoke near the nipple after the wheel is built up. Then I have a reference mark to watch durring tensioning. Rubbing alcohol removes the marks after the wheel is finished.