Bob Dopolina 

Agreed.

It has more to say about training methods in conjunction with technology (can you say wind tunnel).

Six jours

Anybody else seeing the disconnect here? Is there a CLEAR and DISTINCT advantage, or is it an advantage so easily muddled by other factors (well, they were new!) as to be essentially irrelevant?

Six jours

The numbers are there for anyone to read: https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...aix-index.html

Average speeds in Paris-Roubaix have remained consistent for longer than most of us have been alive.

Six jours

Anyway, it's been fun, but my neck is hurting again. This time I'm unplugging the computer before dipping into the opiates. Have fun - I know I will!

Psimet2001 

Yeah...I think you totally missed the point or rather read what you wanted to. Integrated levers are a clear distinct advantage.

Racing is about energy utilization, efficiency and savings. Speeds are worthless in comparison. We've covered that. You agreed. Avg speed comparisons are as stupid, if not more stupid, in actual racing, but energy conservation and proper utilization is exactly the kind of change that integrated levers allowed.

aramis

Sorry I read too much bike snob.

Bob Dopolina 

The courses, the weather conditions and ave speeds haven't been constant at all. Did you even look at those numbers?

1967: 36.824k/h
1971: 42.708k/h
1974: 37.567k/h
1980: 43.106k/h
1988: 40.322k/h
1994: 36.160k/h
1996: 43.310k/h
2001: 37.703k/h
2010: 39.325k/h
2012: 43.476k/h

Yes, very consistent...

Also, no climbing where STI really kicks arse.

grolby

WTF? Who here is regularly riding in third world countries? How is that a sensible comparison to make? In any event, I've never had a shifter of any kind fail on me, but if I had, I'd be screwed without spare parts, no matter what kind of shifter it is. If a bar end or DT shifter wears out - and as a mechanic and tinkerer of old bikes, I can tell you that they absolutely can wear out - you need to replace the friction discs to get it working again. Not to mention the other small parts.

Again, the older shifters may in principle have greater durability and longevity than modern integrated shifters, but not in a way that has practical consequences. Unless you are that guy doing most of his riding in rural Botswana, I guess. That's really not the scenario for, oh, at least 50% of people riding road bikes.

grolby

Like I said before, I've raced with both. Strung out in a pace line at a constant speed, or moving around in a peloton? No problem at all. Responding to changes in pace? Not a big deal, but occasionally inconvenient. Sudden attack? Good luck jumping on that wheel. Sprinting? You pretty much have to get the jump on everyone else AND choose the right gear. Otherwise, you're in trouble.

You raced in the old days, you don't remember the tactical importance of changing gear at the right time? Old cycling films and writing refer to riders - pros, mind you - missing moves or losing time on climbs because they were in the wrong gear or changed at the wrong time. That doesn't happen any more. Which should be more than sufficient evidence of how much STI changed the game. It doesn't have to be such an improvement that anyone not on STI never wins once it is introduced, it only needs to be enough of an improvement that those not on STI have to overcome a clear disadvantage. LeMond winning the TDF with DT shifters doesn't prove that there's no disadvantage, it only means that it is possible to overcome that disadvantage. When I raced with DT shifters, plenty of riders placed behind me. That doesn't mean that I didn't have a disadvantage to overcome.

DerHoggz

TT is so different then what it used to be though. The bikes definitely have an impact there, since the position is dramatically different compared to how they used to ride. The fastest paces in a longer TT are Lemond in '89 at 54.54km/h. Boardman did a prologue at 55.15km/h. The '89 TT was fairly short though.

Psimet2001 

...I thought that's what this was all about.

DerHoggz

More accurately it is about position on the bike. Lemond was on a steel bike with DT shifters, and an old school Mavic disc (what material were those) and low profile front wheel. The only thing different of course were his aerobars and helmet.

big john

I've never had a shifter fail, either, and I can only think of one time seeing (at an organized ride) an Ultegra STI shifter stuck and I think a dt shifter once years ago.
I don't think it happens very often to any kind of shifter, and I'm a guy who has broken 4 frames, had 2 pedals snap off, broken at least 4 seatposts, 3 saddle rails, 2 stems, lots of wheels, spokes, chains, etc., etc.

caloso

The purpose of a racing bicycle is not to go fast. The sole purpose of a racing bicycle is to win bicycle races.

Psimet2001 

My favorite cycling quote. J.A.

Psimet2001 

Apparently though we must not live in the real world.

It's gotten quiet. Must be past all the retrogrouchs' bedtime. That or a discount at A buffet place.

caloso

Thanks. I couldn't remember if it was Anquetil or Coppi.

WHOOOSSHHH...

Milk delivered to the front porch, rabbit ears with tin foil, pay phones with rotary dial, maps....

BigJeff

Manufactured obsolescence, designed to fail, quality created in Japan by a (commie) American who didn't fit in here...

How the heck did poor craftsmanship become an American trait, thus assuring repair shops and spare parts were everywhere?

Only Maytag had a reputation for not breaking. Then Japan crushed the USA on quality for generations, and only recently have US companies strived to acheive.

Yes. We do things different now. We can make composite bikes that are stronger and lighter than the steel ones... generally speaking, better in every way. Unless you still think "wet noodle" is a ride "quality".

Bob Dopolina 

All you retro grouches need to go back into your own world where you can continue to reaffirm your ignorance and prejudices to each other. Leave facts to the rest of us.

jtwilson

+1

oldbobcat

No problem with being retro, it's the grouchiness that bites.

I love my 33-year old steel Masi, but when I need to go long or high, or go against a bunch of 40-year-olds (I'm 60), I reach for my Madone. This new sh** is terrific.

Bob Dopolina 

I agree. I am seriously lusting after one of the English Cycles steel frames and would enjoy the hell out of it

I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the job and if I'm racing I choose equipment accordingly.

ThinLine

I raced in the late 80's early 90's and bought a 1991 Basso Lotto SLX full Campy record, even those notoriuos yet beautiful delta brakes. I agree with the OP although the game changers came in at brifters for me....everything else became evolutionary rather than revolutionary. I now ride 300+ miles a month, have 9 bikes and go for what works the best for the money...................
to me, SRAM Force.

Homebrew01

For the 37th time, integrated shifters don't raise the average speed of a race, they allow you to shift more quickly, accurately, and while climbing and sprinting. A vast improvement for racers.

Clipless are not "faster" than toe clips and straps either, but they are more comfortable and convenient.

A solo rider touring the back roads may not care so much, but personally I would want them no matter where I am riding.