Stripes.

Edit: The movie "Stripes". It is an oft quoted quote.

Ah! I'm flattered.

Noob :D

Thank you. I like Robert. He seems like a decent fellow. But his panties are in a twist over this stuff which is pretty comical. He baited the argument and brought a knife to a gun fight. ;) No substance Robert...nada...nothing.

I'm a Campy user too, but this is getting old.

Campy is alright, but I would rather have Dura Ace.

I believe our work here is done. Come on, Tonto!

We don't sell group sets.

I didn't say which was best. I said that they are all very good.

Your forbearance is a model for us all! No kidding.

AKA: Psycho.

http://www.johnnythefool.com/wp-cont...s1981-1330.jpg

Really, in the end it boils down to ergonomics. Which set of hoods is more comfortable for you? Which type of shifting is best for you? No one else can make this decision. FWIW, I much prefer Campy. My wife doesn't care.

I'd better put a stop to that right away.

Some people just don't care about ergos and I believe that is the signature point. I had this discussion with Pcad a while back where he weighed in. He doesn't care about ergos either...including the feel of a neck of a guitar. It matters to me and others. Shifting difference is another debate. The button on Campy is not without it critics for example. But pushing a lever farther as in the case of Sram or pushing on a brake lever sideways as in the case of DA to me is a bit less friendly that pushing on a button that is very accessible...you don't have to reach all the way to the lever. Then there is multiple shift of Campy which I believe is its signature benefit. I also prefer the aesthetics of Campy. Italians are hard to beat in design...if their function and reliability are up to the taste as is the case with Campy. Campy is the encumbent to be clear. They have the greatest lineage. That doesn't make them the best. Other companies with great history have been passed. I believe with computer technology in particular...CAD...dynamic modeling etc, this makes reverse engineering a lot easier. The gap is narrowing. I want to spend more time on DA9000 and new Sram Red to get a better sense. I could always live with DA7800 which I always felt was excellent. For a cost effective groupset, new Ultegra 6800 is going to be hard to beat. As discussed the ergonomics between all three companies have never been more similar...both Sram and Shimano copying Campy's outstanding Ultrashift hood and shift lever ergonomics.

I think that it is ergonomics, but also if you prefer very light weight touch when shifting or a bit more of a mechanical feeling. I seem to remember this debate on this site in, oh, say 2004? When dual shift stuff came out in the late 80s, early 90s, I tried both brands. Never warmed up to Shimano because of the way that you had to push the brake lever. I particularly did not like the way the shifting took place. You pushed the lever but the shift did not take place until you released the lever. With Campy, it was as soon as the lever was pushed, as with their button. For this reason, and the ergo feel of the hoods, I have used Ergolevers Campy since 1992. Using Chorus 11 now and it is very nice. All of this said, parts (chains, cassettes, etc) is much more readily available with Shimano and Sram than Campy in most LBS.

There is so much that goes into making each design. I believe every shifter design out there is a tradeoff of sorts including the button aka barnacle on the side of Campy hoods. ;) In fact Campy engineers are sensitive to this as well..in an ideal world you have no button on the side but then you chase your tail into having a lateral pivoting brake lever like Shimano or a deep push aka Sram double tap...both requiring to go all the way to the lever and shifting. Campy for example with their EPS because mechanical advantage isn't required completely downsize the silhouette of the button to make it more friendly to ergos aka room for alternative hand positions. Too bad this can't be adapted to mechanical Campy but believe the leverage just isn't there. If anything electronic group sets change the landscape for shifting ergos...reduced leverage and button levers can be placed where ergonomically friendly because they are switches and not bell cranks.

As to the tactile feeling of shifting, not unlike ergos which has been a veritable merry-go-round of synergy...no area of design has evolved more. Lets start with DA 7800 which was lauded for its super smooth and almost inaudible clicks between gears. Then DA7900 came along with the same soft shift detents and low RD spring rate and resulted in 'mushy' shifting due to increased internal cable drag of under bar tape routing. What did Campy do in 2009 when they released Ultrashift which was a watershed for ergonomics?...they screwed the pooch on shift performance. They tried to emulate DA7800 also with under bar tape routing and ended up in with the same crappy DA7900 conundrum. The big difference between Campy Ultrashift in 2009 and DA7900 is how quickly Campy recovered. In 2010, they were back on point with outstanding shifting...best in the industry. Shimano with DA7900 and Ultegra 6700 languished unforgivably for the entire cycle life of these models. They were of course busy redesigning both groupsets which are completely different and vastly improved. In the case of Sram who is the new kid with companion growing pains but heaps of talent, they never had cable friction issues because of monster RD springs...lol. They shifted into gear like a Mac Truck. Double Tap has also evolved extensively. New Sram Red is nothing like its early self. What has the industry now evolved to as a chorus of agreement? Tactile feel of the new stuff is similar. Shimano has smelled the Campy coffee and changed both their ergos and shift feedback in the direction of Campy. Same with Sram. We are all the better for it.

Integrated seatposts were never common and are almost all gone again, and the 11-speed cogs are the same width as ten. Sit back down, granpa.

I miss the old Campy shifters. Somehow that puts me in the minority.

why do I never stop click on these threads, haha.

Even Peter Chisholm, with his Campy tattoo, couldn't get my Record 11 to shift like Chorus 10.

So we need a quick release from this?;)

I would say it does. I sure don't miss them tho they served me well for many years. New shifters are much more comfortable...another hand position with bigger nub that was really Shimano's idea with STI. The often discussed rebuild-ability factor is to me moot as well. Campy is moving away from the spare parts world anyway and old shifters were much more complex than the new shifters which are functionally as good and last longer without service. The aesthetic change of the Campy Ultrashift is an 'acquired taste'...not unlike carbon road bikes with their bulbous frame tubes which are function fantastic but many would submit inelegant compared to bikes of yesteryear. A case of function begetting form. Same can be said for modern F1 cars compared to the cars that Fangio drove.

I still have friction downtube shifter Suntour Superbe Pro, lol.

I've tried Dura Ace 9000 and it blew me away. Upshifting in the drops with Campy is a bit unnatural for me, I don't like to bring my thumb off the drops.

I agree. It's basically about hoods and brand loyalty now.

I still think my Chorus 10 shifts better than anything else I've ridden, with the exception of Di2.

DA9000 is getting great reviews. Using the Campy button in the drops is something I have been doing since it came out and to me easier than shifting the lever. Many say the same thing about the button....pro and con.

Electric shifting has really changed the game hasn't it? Shimano first came forward with their best ergos with their Di2 group sets. I believe it was this focus that caused them to languish in improving DA and Ultegra which were lagging the field. They have really atoned of late however.