How do i find stack and reach using only seat tube length and angle, head tube length and angle and length of top tube?
Anyone?

Before you write it, yes i have asked for it. But the answer i'd got, we doesn't use that building frames.

Assuming the top tube and seat tube length are correct, not virtual, yes you can easily figure out the stack and reach.

Well, ..... How?

Can't be done with just you described. You have to know BB drop as well because BB center determines reach by definition and stack.
I am not going to derive the forumulas for you right now. At some point maybe I will if nobody else has them handy.
It is just trigonometry. Recognizing this isn't everybodles strong suit, I understand if you can put the formulas together.
Maybe somebody will for you. I am going out for a long ride.

Well, you know the top tube length, and seat tube length, and the interior angle where these two tubes meet, and let's call that A. And let's call the end point of the top tube B, and end point of the seat tube C. It's simple trig to find the dimensions of the triangle. The head tube length actually doesn't matter here. From there, it's just a matter of finding the height of the triangle from point C to line AB, and, and the length from where the height line bisects line-AB to point B for reach.

This should be pretty simply, am I missing something here?

Most manufacturers provide a drawing with the critical dimensions. If you can post the drawing (or a link) and for us terminology challenged define "stack" and "reach" someone will figure out these dimensions.

Sorry, you are being overly simplistic. It is more involved than that. Not hard by any stretch...but you don't know the interior angle you mention...it isn't the complement of the sta...as most bikes today don't have a horizontal top tube...have effective and actual top tube length. You need all the dimensions the OP mentioned plus BB drop.
OP...you can get a simple free 2D CAD software on line as well. Pretty easy to plot everything. Also if somebody posts the equations, I will check them with my Roubaix. I know all the dimensions on the bike including stack and reach.

Well that was my point about the measurement being actual and the assumption of top tube being horizontal in my first response. I know modern frames are seldom that, but knowing how the original measurements come from would determine if we need another piece of info.

btw, most modern frame manufacturers put the stack and reach info out there. What are you looking at?

^ I saw the other posts you had on Ti vs carbon thread. Looks like paduano is what you are looking at. From what I understabd, they only offer custom builds, nothing standard about their frame. If they don't want your stack and reach measurement, then what do they need? If they simply dismiss stack and reach as a more effective way of describing a frame geo, then I think you need to think about if they are the right t frame builder for you.

Hi,

thinking i'd need the 560mm TT but the height of the 595mm seat tube/ head tube 206mm.

ROAD

[TABLE="width: 428"]
[TR]
[TD]Seat Tube (c-c)[/TD]
[TD]Frame Length[/TD]
[TD] Angles [/TD]
[TD]Head Tube Length[/TD]
[TD]Top Tube Slope[/TD]
[TD]Rear end[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]490[/TD]
[TD]520[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]115[/TD]
[TD]431[/TD]
[TD]405[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]510[/TD]
[TD]530[/TD]
[TD]73.75[/TD]
[TD]122[/TD]
[TD]449[/TD]
[TD]405[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]530[/TD]
[TD]540[/TD]
[TD]73.75[/TD]
[TD]145[/TD]
[TD]475[/TD]
[TD]405[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]550[/TD]
[TD]550[/TD]
[TD]73.50[/TD]
[TD]155[/TD]
[TD]484[/TD]
[TD]406[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]570[/TD]
[TD]560[/TD]
[TD]73.50[/TD]
[TD]175[/TD]
[TD]502[/TD]
[TD]406[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]580[/TD]
[TD]570[/TD]
[TD]73.25[/TD]
[TD]188[/TD]
[TD]510[/TD]
[TD]407[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]595[/TD]
[TD]580[/TD]
[TD]73.25[/TD]
[TD]206[/TD]
[TD]528[/TD]
[TD]407[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
PS: lengths in mm
PS: BB shell is Press Fit BB30.
ROAD

[TABLE="width: 428"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Sorry but not enough information and I will add odd nomenclature. Frame length? Is that effective, i.e. horizontal top tube?
Angles? Presume that is seat tube angle. You need fork length as well.
Do you have a diagram to go with the frame you are considering?
Lastly...bottom bracket drop affects stack as I stated above. You need BB drop.
The way stack and reach work is they both emanate from the BB centerline...both to the top of the head tube centerline. Even type of headset affects stack for example. In design parlance, the BB is the A datam...from which all dimensions are spawned. If you have two frames that are identical but have different BB drop, the stack will vary from that amount.

See a pic of a Cervelo P2 tri bike with 78 deg forward sta. The P2 is perhaps one of the most popular Tri bikes on the planet. Cervelo, may have invented the stack and reach standard btw...I believe that is so, but not completely sure. Many companies are now embracing this sizing convention including Specialized and list stack and reach for their bikes.
The reason why it is a pretty good convention is...it somewhat takes seat tube angle out of the equation because stack and reach are both dimensioned from the bottom bracket. So if you know where you need to be for a road frame lets say...how many mm's behind the BB you like to ride for your hip angle and center of gravity...you can add this to the reach number. With conventional top tube sizing, sta is 'implicit' in the top tube dimension and is what determines the amount of saddle set back...basically the sine of the sta X the seat tube length 'at the top tube horizontal centerline'...a bit more tedious to calculate. So if you compare bikes with different sta for example, this affects your target for top tube. Stack or the frame height is affected by the vertical position of the bottom bracket. Some frames have more or less BB drop which affects the overall saddle to bar drop for example if comparing bikes with the same stack.

So frame sizing is a bit nuanced. A CAD program makes it easier if you really want to know how your bike is laid out and helps with calculating stem rise and handlebar center etc.

+1

"Frame Length" is an unfamiliar term and needs to be defined. BB drop is also needed. Although not necessary for stack and reach, "Rear End" is also unfamiliar. Is it the chainstay length?

Stack and Reach (BikeCAD). This shows why BB drop is important.

Pardon me for jumping in. I haven't read all the posts, but it's pretty easy to measure stack and reach if you have the frame or bike in hand. With the bike on a horizontal surface, back it up against a vertical wall. Measure the distance from the wall to the BB, from the wall to the top center of the head tube, subtract and that's your reach. Do the same up from the floor for the stack.

Yes, i believe frame length is toptube length.
Damn, i have no BB drop and no fork length. I only have the data from my previous post aswell as knowing it is BB30 as all can see.

No i have no bike at hand, i am looking to order a frameset.

I've now asked for the BB drop, HT and ST angles and fork length. Hope i'll get it.
Otherwise i have no clue how to even order a correct sized custom.
Why does this need to be so difficult!?

As to being difficult. Here is the thing. Stack and reach is a fairly recent convention...maybe the last 5 years. For 50 years, road bikes were built and sold without this information. Stack and reach is just more information about a frame. Why do you need stack and reach in the first place? The only reason is for basis for comparison frame to frame. Do you know your particular stack and reach target? If not, its pretty irrelevant.
What kind of frame are you ordering and why? Frame info provided was a bit 'different'. Sure its a reputable frame?

Yes, i have made understood on how to gripe height and length using stack and reach. As is, you can look at Times frames as an example, even the performance series are pretty low and also have a long reach, inspite of the high headtube length and quite short toptube. I had never known that if i had not been able to make them measure. There are frames with higher stack using shorter headtube. Now, i hope that stack and reach are static numbers. If not, even this is an uncertain method. If there is no certain method, then it would be very difficult ordering an unseen frameset. My idea is, or was, to order a frameset with no need using spacers or needing to use a flipped stem.

As for Paduano Gladio and why i fell for it. Well, i did get curious of a mixed frame. But for it to be at it's best it is ofcourse best, with it's price in mind, it is fitting me very well.
The other frames i've been viewing which are very close in fit and build. Paduano is perhaps intriguing to me, due to it's mix of materials and looks. I am very curious. I've been viweing others, but none really stuck on to me like this one.
If not this, i would be interested in Bianchi Infinito CV. Ofcourse, that is a set that will be more or less seen everywhere. But it is a more safe bet, i can't argue against that.
How do you really describe the sense in a hook up or a feeling? Believe me, if i could afford i would probably buy two framesets and travel to Italy to be more certain.
I am just not sure really, on how i really know what i get in terms of length or height. To even finance this i have put up hell of a trouble and not until next week i know if it will work. So, how to make it fit is really important. I have been pondering a new set for a long time. Eventually i have believe that many of them are probably not much different to one and another.

Stack and reach are static unless the lower headset stack and/or the fork length are changed. For a given frame, fork, and headset, stack and reach do not change.

For over a century, getting the contact points (saddle, handlebar, and pedals) in the same relative position from frame to frame by adjusting saddle height and setback, and stem height and extension was all that mattered as far as riding position was concerned. Nobody had ever heard of stack and reach the way the term is used today.

What country do you live in Avispa?
Stack and Reach are easy to calculate for anybody decent at basic math...taught in the US in the 8th grade or what is called junior high school. If you provide all the information requested...like bottom bracket drop and fork length and 'effective' top tube length which is the horizontal top tube length, not actual which is different for most sloping top tube bikes, I would be happy to show you how to calculate stack and reach. It is really quite simple trigonometry. It still isn't clear to me what you will use this for but if you learn the stack and reach of this frame you are interested in, it will assist you in choosing a similar geometry bike which maybe your objective.
Let us know what you learn about the rest of the frame numbers.

PS: You will also need fork rake Avista. Out of curiosity, I just calculated the Stack of my Roubaix. When determining it, not only do you need the length of the fork from fork crown to axle center...but how many mm the fork is raked forward. The effective length of the fork to the axle center is different than the fork crown to axle center.
I can show some of this pictorially at some point. A good exercise to know anyway and now you have peaked my curiosity. Again, you don't have to do the trig if you graph the nos. with a simple 2D CAD program. I may do that as well at some point to show you...as I have a CAD program I use on my PC for designing different things and it would work fine. The CAD program would crunch the trig automatically of course by plotting the length of the frame members and so you wouldn't have to do the math.

Let me know if you get the info together.

Lastly, Reach is real easy to calculate once you calculate stack.
Stack is only a bit tricky because of fork rake...axle is in front of theoretical intersection with head tube and horizontal axle center. Another way of putting it is rake shortens stack...the more the fork rake the shorter the stack.
I just finished the calculation for my Roubaix. Stack is real close and Reach agrees exactly with the spec on their frame chart.

Other thing I will add is...and please take this constructively, I find the vast number of people that think they need a unique geometry don't. Or at least they shouldn't. For example you want a tall frame and relatively short top tube. Why is that Avista? Why do you want to ride so upright? Upright isn't very good on a road bike. If you get a chance, share your height and leg inseam...measured with thin book method. So many believe they need a unique geometry because they haven't refined their riding position. If you are long legged for your height, then I understand why you may want a bit taller head tube. But there are a lot of endurance frames on the market...many that will provide this balance. You don't need a custom geometry.
I will give you an example. The Trek Domane has a 567mm effective top tube and 195mm head tube in size 58. This very closely coincides with what you are looking for. Bianchi may have a frame very similar in terms of stack and reach as most major manufacturers offer such a geometry. If you want take the stack and reach off a Domane geometry chart as your baseline.

So if Paduano only does custom sizing frame, why is S&R even important unless you already have a frame with known S&R numbers and you want to replicate?

Granted, those Paduano frames are very sexy, but if you paying that kind money, I would get it fitted.

I agree with dalava. Unless you have a frame that fits where you can calculate stack and reach, then knowing it for a random frame is meaningless.
But OP...if you want to calculate stack and reach for say a 560 effective top tube (horizontal dimension) and 595mm seat tube and 206mm head tube, I can help you out if you establish BB drop. We could even pick some general nos. if you can't dig out what you need which isn't always easy without contacting the mfr.
Like BB drop = 70mm
Fork rake = 45mm
Fork length crown to axle center = 375mm

But this stuff sometimes isn't published. For example fork length generally isn't. Fork rake also isn't published always. Don't see it for the Domane for example. Roubaix as an example has a 49mm rake to reduce the trail of the bike to increase steering sensitivity...steering is slowed by long wheelbase (chain stay length a contributor) and 73 deg head tube angle which gives the bike is great ride quality. More rake to the fork which decreases trail also improves compliancy.
The Domane which is a similar bike to the Roubaix has a very different geometry with more BB drop which increases its stack height for the same head tube length. Stack partly came into being because most presume that by looking at head tube height they can determine saddle to bar drop...but this is a false assumption because seat tube length starts at the BB center and why stack starts at the BB horizontal center as well.

I will tell you what I believe is a pitfall of a custom geometry if you absolutely don't need it.
1. Unless you do the trig just right and nail every parameter, you won't achieve a 0 spacer stack height and slam your stem which is your intent. Also you lose some adjustability targeting this design condition.
2. A frame's ride and handling are a function of all frame dimensions. A custom builder has to be a sevant to nail both and also read your mind as to what you want. This is why picking a production frame close to your requirements is your best bet by a fair margin. Hope that makes sense.

Hello,

i am 181.5cm, inseam is 88.5-89cm, torso about 63cm. Arms length pending on where you do it, 66.5-67cm.

I based my sizing (stack and reach) on my 54 size Scott Foil (stack 549mm/ reach 385mm). I also use 35mm spacers, a stem of +/-6 degree, 120mm long flipped (flipped equals 26mm + in height). 549+35+26=610. This also shortens reach. I am not upright as my saddle is high. I use look blade (stack pedal and cleat + 17mm).
Saddle to bar drop is 100mm.
Saddle is now at 780mm, i could go a bit higher actually. From ground up, saddle 1030mm, bar 930mm.

Most bikes get too short in height, or height is good but reach runs to long. I have many stems and i have tried positions like crazy.
Yes, i should really need a good bikefit. But those i really trust do it well are two. It is very very far and going back and forth wouldn't be done in one day. I've seen several customized bikes, were people ride with flipped stems, too much spacers and i just don't get the idea if they do it that way.
I can ride the bike with minimal spacers and stem in low position. I can tell you, to sit as i do now really affects some of the bikes cornering and descending. The feeling i am on top is not what i'd like. Next is, i would like a bike that is more pleasing. The Foil is not, it is a bit harsh. Yes, from what i've heard of Bianchi Infinito CV it seems to be a very very good bike. So no question, i would pick that frameset also if i could.
Paduano sells their bike as frame with seatpost. You buy the saddle adjuster/clamp and the fork and the headset.
You also decide if you want carbon or titanium; seat tube, seatmast, down tube and toptube.
It is more expensive the more carbon you'd like. Also you can go for a more elastic layup in tubes, or stiffer. Stiffer cost most as option, elastic is a milder cost increase. To run electronic you need adapters. You can also buy an even more expensive version made for disc.

Most custom i have looked at is from US. It is not that i must have custom, don't believe that. I just did not find frames with the height and length that seem suitable for me long leg/ short reach fit. I have been trying some longer reach, but it affected my lower back.
What eats me in long time riding Foil is the hard seating. It is to much for me. I have asked alot regarding this and some claimed i was better off looking at a full ti bike. This is where it all began. An import is always tricky as we have so high taxes for out of EU imports.
It is well around 35% of the frame and freight cost. Nothing is written in stone when it comes to frame. But to really ride a bike and feel it, i'd need my pedals/shoes and bibs. There are very few offering such a test ride.
I would take Infinito CV over Roubaix, but Roubaix is also interesting. So is Cannondale Synapse (new), Scott Solace and Rose Team CGF and many more. I have to rid most bikes from my list due to frame height. I won't buy a bike to low again (and not to long either).

Well we are getting to know you a bit better. You still didn't tell us where you are from.
So what do you want to accomplish Avispa? You are almost 6' with 35 inch cycling inseam. We are close to the same size btw...I am just a bit taller.
I would love to see you on your bike. Most guys around 6' tall that are serious riders...your set up suggests to me you are serious...prefer a top tube length in the 580mm range...especially with long arms. I ride with a 582mm top tube + 130mm stem. I do agree you would do better with a taller head tube btw because of your long legs...I am in the same situation. But bikes like the Foil aka aero, stiff speed bikes are not proportioned with the dimensions you would like which are closer to an endurance geometry. You won't find a custom frame with the aero profile of a Foil or a Venge.
I believe this is a good learning opportunity for you. Since you want to be micro and dial your position...I think you would do better on a longer top tube bike...then plot your virtual idealized bike with a CAD program. You can precisely dial 0 stem stack height and stem negative rise of your choosing.

I will leave you with another thought I hope you consider. Consider a Cervelo S5. Its one of the best aero bikes on the planet with a tall head tube for its genre of bike. The reason FWIW that Cervelo engineers went with a taller head tube on that bike is because it raises the downtube to improve air flow. Aero bikes are in their infancy and I believe the future of cycling and will find their way into the hands of more average cyclist over time who have a passion for speed. If you want to take some initiative...post the geometry chart for your Scott Foil and a geometry chart of a Cervelo S5 and we will compare stack and reach together and you will see why that bike would be better for your body with long legs.

PS: take a measurement for me off of your Foil. If you want a 4 inch bar drop, then you want more of a pro fit. Measure the saddle tip to the steerer centerline...where the stem attaches to the fork steerer and post this dimension. I will give you a range for this dimension based upon how pro's ride.

Nose of saddle to to steer tip (center bolt) is 443mm, i have been changing this measurement. But this feels good. No, i think i'd like a more shallow drop.
perhaps 80-85mm. I've been put on all from 550 to 570mm TT bikes, as platform from Guru making a pre-calculated fit, i was on a 561mm/ reach 385mm.

Foil 54:
[TABLE="width: 590"]
[TR]
[TH="class: top nobg"][/TH]
[TH="class: top col-odd noborderbottom, colspan: 2"]XXS/47[/TH]
[TH="class: top col-odd noborderbottom, colspan: 2"]XS/49[/TH]
[TH="class: top col-odd noborderbottom, colspan: 2"]S/52[/TH]
[TH="class: top col-odd noborderbottom, colspan: 2"]M/54[/TH]
[TH="class: top col-odd noborderbottom, colspan: 2"]L/56[/TH]
[TH="class: top col-odd noborderbottom, colspan: 2"]XL/58[/TH]
[TH="class: top col-odd noborderbottom, colspan: 2"]XXL/61[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: letter"]A[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]head tube angle[/TH]
[TD="colspan: 2"]70.5°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]71.0°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]72.0°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]73.0°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]73.0°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]73.3°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]73.3°[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: horizontal-alt"]
[TH="class: letter"]B[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]headtube length[/TH]
[TD]100 mm[/TD]
[TD]3.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]105 mm[/TD]
[TD]4.1 inches[/TD]
[TD]120 mm[/TD]
[TD]4.7 inches
[/TD]
[TD]140 mm[/TD]
[TD]5.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]160 mm[/TD]
[TD]6.3 inches[/TD]
[TD]180 mm[/TD]
[TD]7.1 inches[/TD]
[TD]200 mm[/TD]
[TD]7.9 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: letter"]C[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]toptube length horizontal[/TH]
[TD]510 mm[/TD]
[TD]20.1 inches[/TD]
[TD]520 mm[/TD]
[TD]20.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]535 mm[/TD]
[TD]21.1 inches
[/TD]
[TD]550 mm
[/TD]
[TD]21.7 inches[/TD]
[TD]565 mm[/TD]
[TD]22.2 inches[/TD]
[TD]580 mm[/TD]
[TD]22.8 inches[/TD]
[TD]595 mm[/TD]
[TD]23.4 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: horizontal-alt"]
[TH="class: letter"]E[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]seat tube angle[/TH]
[TD="colspan: 2"]74.5°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]74.5°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]74.0°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]73.3°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]73.3°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]73.0°[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]72.5°[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: letter"]G[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]bb center to toptube center[/TH]
[TD]410 mm[/TD]
[TD]16.1 inches[/TD]
[TD]430 mm[/TD]
[TD]16.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]460 mm[/TD]
[TD]18.1 inches[/TD]
[TD]480 mm
[/TD]
[TD]18.9 inches
[/TD]
[TD]500 mm[/TD]
[TD]19.7 inches[/TD]
[TD]520 mm[/TD]
[TD]20.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]550 mm[/TD]
[TD]21.7 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: horizontal-alt"]
[TH="class: letter"]H[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]chainstay length[/TH]
[TD]405 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]405 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]405 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]405 mm
[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]405 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]405 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]405 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: letter"]I[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]bb offset[/TH]
[TD]-67 mm[/TD]
[TD]-2.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]-67 mm[/TD]
[TD]-2.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]-67 mm[/TD]
[TD]-2.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]-67 mm
[/TD]
[TD]-2.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]-67 mm[/TD]
[TD]-2.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]-67 mm[/TD]
[TD]-2.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]-67 mm[/TD]
[TD]-2.6 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: horizontal-alt"]
[TH="class: letter"]J[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]standover height[/TH]
[TD]717 mm[/TD]
[TD]28.2 inches[/TD]
[TD]731 mm[/TD]
[TD]28.8 inches[/TD]
[TD]755 mm[/TD]
[TD]29.7 inches[/TD]
[TD]775 mm
[/TD]
[TD]30.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]794 mm[/TD]
[TD]31.3 inches[/TD]
[TD]814 mm[/TD]
[TD]32.0 inches[/TD]
[TD]838 mm[/TD]
[TD]33.0 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: letter"][/TH]
[TH="class: label"]wheelbase[/TH]
[TD]972 mm[/TD]
[TD]38.3 inches[/TD]
[TD]978 mm[/TD]
[TD]38.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]980 mm[/TD]
[TD]38.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]985 mm
[/TD]
[TD]38.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]994 mm[/TD]
[TD]39.1 inches[/TD]
[TD]1003 mm[/TD]
[TD]39.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]1012 mm[/TD]
[TD]39.8 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: horizontal-alt"]
[TH="class: letter"]K[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]reach[/TH]
[TD]371 mm[/TD]
[TD]14.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]379 mm[/TD]
[TD]14.9 inches[/TD]
[TD]384 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.1 inches[/TD]
[TD]385 mm
[/TD]
[TD]15.2 inches[/TD]
[TD]394 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.5 inches[/TD]
[TD]400 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.7 inches[/TD]
[TD]403 mm[/TD]
[TD]15.9 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: letter"]L[/TH]
[TH="class: label"]stack[/TH]
[TD]503 mm[/TD]
[TD]19.8 inches[/TD]
[TD]509 mm[/TD]
[TD]20.0 inches[/TD]
[TD]527 mm[/TD]
[TD]20.7 inches[/TD]
[TD]549 mm
[/TD]
[TD]21.6 inches[/TD]
[TD]569 mm[/TD]
[TD]22.4 inches[/TD]
[TD]589 mm[/TD]
[TD]23.2 inches[/TD]
[TD]608 mm[/TD]
[TD]23.9 inches[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: horizontal-alt"]
[TH="class: letter"][/TH]
[TH="class: label"]stem length[/TH]
[TD="colspan: 2"]90 mm[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]100 mm[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]110 mm[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]110 mm[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]110 mm[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]120 mm[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]130 mm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

S5:

Size 48 51 54 56 58 61
Wheel Size 700c 700c 700c 700c 700c 700c
Head Tube Angle 70.5° 72.2° 73.1° 73.5° 73.5° 73.5°
BB Drop 68 68 68 68 68 68
Head Tube Length 108 128 148 173 199 225
Front Centre 575 577 575 587 604 620
Rear Centre 405 405 405 405 405 405
Stand Over Height 693 723 753 784 815 846
Stack 505 530 555 580 605 630
Reach 360 369 378 387 396 405
Fork Offset 53 53 43 43 43 43
Seat Tube Angle 73.0o 73.0o 73.0o 73.0o 73.0o 73.0o
Top Tube 516 531 548 564 581 597

I made the Foil of my size RED and the larger sized 56 of S5 RED.
Yes, you are very correct. I would like to need no spacers and using only stem angle if i find height issues.
I don't like dim results, i'd like them to be kind of static and precise. I don't know why, but i find it disturbing if they are shady.
As do i when i don't really understand how to tell sizing of a frame, or my positioning at it.

What also annoys me, is a doubt i feel. It is tough to get inseam correct one my own, applying correct amount of pressure.
Also, when starting to ride i can sit a bit lower, not to extend knee to much. When i've been doing 20kilometers i can ride and prefer, a bit higher.
I noted knee over axle is approximated for me. Risk is the lower leg (below knee) is getting too much forward extending this angle a bit too much.
Also more specific i notice, either i find comfortable position on top of bar, or in the bends. This is a bit tricky to dial. I have to remind myself to relax in shoulders, neck etc.
More, i am from Sweden. I appreciate the help, i really do.