I have some data on a race that I both recorded on tape and that have on Strava (which I only really started using in April 2012). The race is from Aug 19, 2012. Dead flat - it's a former WW2 airfield. It has some wind - it's on the shore - although that day there wasn't much wind.

Clip:

Some highlights in terms of "race events":
- I launch my teammate so he can try to bridge a gap.
- I sprint
That's it

First the overall race graph on Strava (the race is here in Strava). Nothing spectacular, speed in the mid-20s (blue line):


My fast lap is when I launch my teammate. It's fast enough that it's the fastest lap I've ever done there on Strava. I do about 34 mph in the effort then go really slow until I get caught. I still average 28 mph for the lap (and the effort and the slow bit are in the clip):


His lap when I launch him is impressive - he ends up 3rd overall on Strava, averaging 30 mph for 1:45 (1:45 lap). It's not in the clip since I wasn't with him:


My finish, which if you watch the video is in a slight tailwind sprint but with no draft. I jump early, I stay left of everyone, and I basically do my own sprint. Because I jumped early I didn't go a thousand percent. However it's fast enough to get into the Strava stuff; in real life the sprint is worthless. For the numbers people I did 1140w peak and sustained about 750-800w for 20 seconds; a typical all out sprint in a race is 1200-1300w and sustained 1000w for 20s, and an all out sprint in training is 1300-1500+, don't recall what I do for 20s in my peak efforts:


My average wattage is 175w for that race. 88rpm avg. I weighed in the 175 lbs range (5'7").

My bike was like this at the time (from a different race a month prior but same significant bits - wheels, tires, pedals, etc). I have aero wheels and I think they make a difference. The rest of it isn't very significant, i.e. if it works then it's fine. SRM to measure power. In other words nothing weird:


The race went 23.8 mph but the fast laps were in the 28-30 mph range.

Right. And what I was saying was that 25mph in draft isn't much - not even enought power for a lighter person to climb well. For me, at 165 lbs, 25 mph in draft means even less for hill climbing ability.

I am pushing at the top of my limits to stay with the group on the flats. Don't have much left at the start of the hills or any inclines. Traffic lights are a great equalizer and let me catchup at the bottom of the hills on the other side - when I'm lucky :-)

If you're pushing that hard when everybody else is saving it for the hills, I think that suggests you're riding with the wrong group.

That being said, since it's working for you, just keep it up and maybe it won't be the wrong group for long...

I'm asthmatic so good breathing technique is helpful in merely riding around and crucial in climbing. https://velonews.competitor.com/2013/...he-bike_306454 The article on Velo News about reducing deficits has an interesting outlook on improving performance. What drew my attention was muscle imbalances that effect breathing and oxygen uptake. That outlook fits in with what I've been learning recently about the mechanics of breathing.

Basically, while the diaphram is the primary muscle for breathing, the process is aided by the intercostal muscles spanning the rib cage. These muscles help open the chest on inhaling and to close the chest to exhale. A simple experiment illustrates the effect. If you drop the chin and hunch the spine a bit and then inhale, air moves slowly and with difficulty into the chest. When you raise the chin and straighten the back, you can feel the chest opening up and air easily rushing in. The link shows what muscles to work on. Also I found a book "Yoga Anatomy" from Human Kinetics the clearly shows the mechanics of breathing and the muscles involved. https://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Anatomy-2...s=Yoga+Anatomy

At 66 I don't care how fast I climb any more but just 15 years ago I was one of the best climbers in the group because at 5'5 I weighed only 125 pounds. This is huge! It's simple physics. Your heart is just as big as someone who is six feet tall so If you stay lean it pays big dividends. By the way, it's about 70 percent mental so don't quit as soon as you ride into the house of pain. Embrace it! Attack it! I used to do repeats on a mile long 9 percent grade hill on weekends so on the Wednesday night rides I could kick ass. Do a bunch of repeats on the steepest hill you can find and then go home and rest. Don't go on a long ride afterwards. The house of pain likes you if you visit often.

I believe your core muscles are weak. I went through this several years ago. I couldn't explain why I would get so tired so quickly in extended climbs experiencing the typical lactic acid build-up that makes your legs burn in pain. On your days off, try core exercises at your gym or at home. Pilates is a good one but there are other methods. You need to be careful if you go solo at home, since many core exercises could easily hurt your back if not done properly (best to start at the gym with an instructor.) You should see really interesting results in your climbing ability in approx. four weeks, as long as you stick to 3 times/week core training.

Or he is a new rider who is blowing his legs out just trying to keep up on the flat parts and having no gas for the hills.......

Or both.

Could it be your inability to put your wheelsucking talents when going up a hill? 150# is fairly light. I think it's power related.

tl;dr all the crap above

1) Do hill repeat workouts. Do some in difficult gears, do some in your easiest gears. Seated and standing. Kill yourself.

2) Let yourself hurt a little. Hills are hard. They're supposed to be. Flats are easy. They're supposed to be. So if you're cruising along at 24 or whatever on the flats with relative ease...don't hold that same effort level on the hills, cuz you'll get dropped. No...you have to hurt on the hills. Then you can cruise again at 24 on the flat to recover a bit.

3) Carry momentum into the hills. If you know a hill is coming, pushing on the flats where it's still easy so as to carry more momentum into the hill can pay dividends.

4) Make sure you learn to shift at the right time, into the right gear for your you. There's a fine line between pushing too hard, not pushing hard enough, and the shifting at the right times to continue on that fine line instead of getting derailed.

5) Also...if you know a hill is coming and you're in a group...well, suck wheel for a while before the hills! That might give you just enough energy saved to not get dropped by those guys that climb better than you.

6) Every bit of resistance saved helps. Get lighter (you and your gear), especially lighter wheels. Get low crr tires. Get aero frame/wheels.

7) Maybe get a wider cassette? You might need a 26, 27, 28...and just spin like a banshee to keep up.

This is all well and good if one has a level of fitness they aren't tapping.
But for many the aerobic capacity just isn't there; or hasn;t been built up enough.
Riders who are over-weight or under fit run into this very definite headwall. Those who have suffered some debilitating effect can see this remarkable wall - ie, many heart attack survivors who chose to continue their aerobic 'activity'...
after mine (5 yrs ago) It was noticeable that measured efforts I could do before were now around 60% of before. This is not some set 'number', just what my attack did to me. Even now I'm nowhere near where I was before...
The whole 'attack the house of pain' thing doesn't apply when you absolutely are totally gassed. It's not about 'pain' in the legs, it's a total shutdown, before the legs go away.
And 'power' eventually becomes dialed back, BECAUSE you just can't go hard enough to keep it or build it.
Like putting a young Cat 5 rider into a Cat 2 race - without the aerobic fitness the shelling is inevitable.
For us old pharts aerobic capacity is a downhill process, sometimes with a big-ass step...

I didn;t read every post, but the OP didn;t give his age. BUt he did say he could ride the flats reasonably, but not stay 'with the Little Old Ladies' on climbs.
So, is he age limited for his aerobic fitness? who knows? Aerobic fitness is a longterm development, not weeks or even months dependin...
so what do you do on this type of ride? well small jumps/increments. You pick the riders who get to the top just a bit before you and try to hold their wheel, with everything you've got and every smart adaptation you can make. When that becomes easier you find the next riders ahead of you and do the same thing, all over again...
and, there might (will) be a point in time where you just won't get any further up the food chain of climbers...

I can tell you for certain that 20 yrs from now, when Jens yells 'Shut UP legs!', he will certainly be going much slower and not as far...

not sayin to 'not' constantly push against the ceiling, but sayin 'Shut UP Legs!' will have mixed results.

Good grief, folks. Try reading the guy's posts. Oxygen is transported by red blood cells. The OP has a lot fewer than normal and no iron to use to make any more. Climbing is totally dependent on oxygen transport. It's aerobic, right?

So sorry, but you'll never climb with this group. Isn't going to happen. All the work in the world won't make it happen. You can get better, sure, but so can they. I.e. you'll always get shelled. So, as it is said, find a slower group of friends. The other thing you can do is change sports: hike in the summer, Alpine ski in the winter. Neither of those are particularly dependent on aerobic ability, though you'll be altitude limited. The High Sierra won't be much fun.

Another thing you can do is forget the group ride thing and just go soloing: explore and have fun riding. That's what I did as a kid. Tremendous fun.

Love the video. Number 701, 720 and I think 708 look like they might be from the Peerless group in Keene NH. (110 miles north) AKA as Heart of New England club. At least that was the club name when I rode with them in the 1990's. I still have my jersey from 1995 and it looks almost identical to what they are wearing.

Although you are partially right he can probably get much better and it isn't always about beating others. I'm sure that catching with the B group isn't hard with some training and effort. He's been riding for a couple of months and should be approaching that B level by now. with 400 miles a month he is getting quite a bit of miles. Also I he could be able to take something for the anemic stuff and that should make it better

Kudos to him no? for being so loyal to the sport with his naturally anti EPO anatomy!

You have the right attitude. The best way to be good at climbs is to do climbs. Ride solo. I am a lone wolf and have become a fairly strong rider by recreational rider standards. I, however, am a horrific group rider. You know what? who cares when I can ride front of the pack 3 bikes in front and if I wanna have a conversation I just drop to the back.... hahaha tooting my own horn here. (I'm not that of a doosh). See if you can do something about that anemic stuff, that should be your main concern. I am sure that, if you ride with a team, you are dealing with fairly strong riders. Don't feel crappy if they leave you in the dust. Most rides I've seen everybody is hammering most of the time. On the hills they overexert themselves. When going on hills, drop the hammer for real until you feel like you can't handle it anymore. After that, you can vomit, clean it with your jersey and HTFU. Keep going at it, you'll be dropping B roadies in no time

Originally Posted by vasuvius
Hmm.. Interesting point about red blood cells. I'm severely anemic - very low red cell count and iron. It's genetic so nothing can be done.
I can easily keep my HR in the 160-180 range for over an hour, but likely not getting efficient oxygen delivery. The heart and lungs work well but the blood can't absorb enough oxygen to power the muscles? Resting HR is mid 40s so it's not a heart/lung conditioning issue I imagine.
This morning I was looking at one of the other guys computer and his HR was at 115 while I was at 157...we had just stopped at a traffic light..
I just need to keep working at it and I'll get there eventually.
/quote

Biggest part of the communication problem is we DO read his posts.
First post OP says he hangs with A group, then later on he says he's on the ragged edge just hanging, before the climbs starts - which is it ???

Above he talks of severe anemia and low iron - genetic. Yet he says he has mid40s resting HR. I mean, on planet earth?
Check with any MD, read any reference, anemia is associated with HIGH resting rates. Blood chemistry dictates the HR at any time.
so what is it? There are a lot of things which can cause some anemia, same with low iron levels...
make your own inferences on what is and what isn't on what he claims...

OP: Never look at another's HR as a comparison at any time. There are reasons his was low and yours was high and these are not directly comparable. Comparable is yourself to yourself, on any common road section, in the same environmental conditions, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I'm gettin you're a new rider and maybe over-reaching. And not getting shelled climbing, by better riders is one of the hardest things to overcome.
Apply some more HTFU sauce....

In a related issue, I find that I am unable to leap to the heights NBA and even college players regularly attain.



O plan to choose different parents next life around.

Sufferfest is great for climbing exercises. Angels, Hunted and There is no Try.

You must be riding with a pretty friggin fast A group. 4.6 w/kg puts you solidly in Cat 1 on the E wang chart, and would imply that the guys in the group climbing a good bit faster would be in the domestic pro range.

First time I looked up that chart I thought "awesome, I'll be great in races!". Then I realized the chart is way off and I end up mid field in Cat 5 races with climbing. Or maybe everyone around here really is friggin fast. Idk, maybe the chart is accurate in Podunk, Nebraska?

The chart is at best a relative measure, and success in races depends on more than FTP. That said, there are a bunch of Cat 2's and Cat 3's, myslef included that have FTP's way below 4.6w/kg.

I wouldn't call 4.6 fast. It's all relative. The chart is grossly mislabeled. It's a nice litttle laugh, but not useful at all for actual analysis. For example, i would probably suck in a p/1 field with a measly 5.1 w/kg ftp (heck even at my 5.4 w/kg peak back when i was 145 and getting ready for nationals). Now if we were doing 5 minute climbs i would be set, or 1 minute, or 3 minute, or anything less than 10 minutes where my real power is, but true 20 minute to hour climbs suck penis butt, especially in a p/1/2 field.

Anyway back to the important part. the op is just new and doesn't have a ton of raw power. Sitting in at 25 is pretty easy (even pulling isnt that hard). Also he is probably pushing too hard too early. Most rides start this way: slow people pushing the pace early, faster riders going faster later on. Also it's very easy to gain speed on the flats. For example today i averaged 240 watts and only did 31 km/h, but if i had sat in the drops, or gone on a flatter route, i could have been much higher (maybe 34-36 km/hr). It's just like when i do hour long sst sessions at 24 mph at 330 watts. I'm sitting upright on the hoods. Get me on my tt bike for the same session i'll be doing low 27s. Give me a threshold effort on the tt bike, i'm all of a sudden at 28-29 mph with all my goofy aero stuff.

The anemia issue is of course the biggest limiting factor. Depending on the nature of the problem (and certainly if you're not going to compete), it might be possible to get a legal therapeutic use exemption for erythropoietin and/or intravenous iron infusion. Only a doctor could tell you if either of those is called for or would be beneficial.

That aside, from the riding and conditioning perspectives only, I think I know what the problem might be. You started riding with a group from basically the outset of your cycling experience and got pretty good pretty quick at hanging onto a reasonably brisk pace and even taking some pulls at the same pace. But this doesn't prepare you for a sustained effort at the wattage the best riders in this group are able to put out. Let's say you're somewhat comfortable at a power output of 180 watts in the draft and can even do 250 or more for a brief turn at the front, peeling off when you start to creep into the red zone. That will allow you to hang for awhile in the 25 mph range. You can also attack a short hill at the higher wattage and not be done for, recovering on a following downslope (similar to taking a pull and drifting back). This temporarily gives you the impression that you're at the same overall level as the rest of the group. And hanging in at 25 mph certainly isn't shabby at all, especially for a noob. But when you have to sustain a wattage that's in that red zone of yours and you don't have the option of drifting back into the draft to recover, that's when you crack. If a climb requires you to generate 215 watts for 5 minutes just to stay on the wheel of the next-to-last guy in the group, it's going to be far enough above your threshold for too long, despite the fact that you might be able put out over 250 watts for a very short time and then recover. Ignoring the anemia issue (which is frankly a huge issue), some of this comes down to conditioning and climbing technique and some of it is probably the psychological burden of knowing that on the hill, you can't drift back into the draft to recover when you feel the hurt starting to come on. There's no place to hide. It's just you against gravity and you have to keep that hard effort going longer than you ever need to in the paceline.

Another thing at play is that most riders in that group are probably way more experienced and fitter and are probably pacing themselves a lot better and feel quite a bit easier than you're feeling on the flats. So when it's time for every man to put out his own wattage for a good while on the climb, with little to no benefit of the draft, they're not as far in the hole as you are at the base of the hill. Despite the fact that you think you're doing fine and holding your own on the flats, they're feeling even less distress and are ready to pick up the overall effort even more on a long hill.

To get better, spend some time spinning faster in easier gears on the longest hills you can find that aren't so brutal that you can remain fairly comfortable for most of the climb, tinkering around with pedaling technique and hand positions without laboring. Also do repeats on hills that are just a tiny bit longer than you can currently power over, again practicing different techniques before really going to the well on them. And occasionally hammer some steeper hills that are short enough to be in your physical and psychological wheelhouse, but do a few reps of them so that you hurt a bit by the end. The technique, comfort and fitness for climbing should improve, and with it, the confidence will increase. Once the hills (and speeds on them) that are barely doable become quite doable and they are no longer daunting, try going faster on the longer climbs. Give yourself time to find your climbing legs - it might even take a few years before it starts to really click. You might never get great at climbing (not everyone does), but you'll get better, and riding will be more fun when you don't dread the hills and you know you can conquer them at speeds that were once impossible.

Always remember (when climbing):

On the Tuesday night world championships, I'm barely hanging on the flat section with the tail wind at 30+mph. The next 8 mile tailwind section has some modest 5% climbs where I can go with some others and get a nice gap....until the downhill 6 miles to the finish where we always get caught.