Brian Ratliff

Everyone has probably seen this chart before:



One thing that instantly strikes me is it lists the hamstrings as a "knee flexor". While working out in the gym, doing deadlifts in particular, you find immediately that the hamstrings are much more a hip extensor than a knee flexor. It didn't make sense to me until a ride I did this weekend. It was the first real sprint intensity work I've done after I have started seriously weight training this off-season. I have some observations.

When you push with your leg, say getting up out of a chair, both your quad and your hamstrings contract in what is apparently known as "Lombard's paradox". If the hamstring is a knee flexor and the quad is a knee extensor, then why do both of these muscles fire when you rise from a sitting position? If you know a little about levers, you know the answer immediately. The hamstring stretches across the hip and knee joints, and when rising from a seated position, it has more leverage on the hip because of its attachment points and acts then as a hip extensor. The quad also stretches across the knee and the hip, but having more leverage on the knee, acts as a knee extensor. So, the above chart is wrong as an ideal because apparently the hamstring makes a much better hip extensor than a knee flexor.

What I've observed in my own riding is my quads used to dominate my pedaling motion prior to weight training. The leg extension was driven by the knee joint. I've had several weaknesses in the past. One is revealed on standing starts: I have a hard time applying power when the pedal is above horizontal. Another is revealed during sprinting. I tend to use my hamstrings as a knee flexor and pull with my recovering leg to get more power, leading to the rear wheel lifting and not having a good connection to the road.

The other day, riding after several weeks of weight training focused on the hamstrings, I found what might be a universal trait with quad dominated cyclists: they have a "soft", arched back. There is no way to use the hamstring as a hip extensor without a rigid back. One good thing about the weight training is you start feeling how you use your various muscles. Deadlifts force you to feel your back and your hamstrings. During the ride, I did one big stopline sprint effort, focusing on keeping my back rigid and using my hamstrings for hip extension. Not only did I gain a ton of power (it was a great feeling acceleration), but I found my rear wheel stayed planted. I am not sure why, but I believe it is because, when using my hamstrings on the downstroke for hip extension to drive the leg, they aren't going to then tighten a second time to pull at the pedal on recovery. That keeps the force vectors pointed down on the bottom bracket and keeps the rear wheel on the ground.

One other observation about that ride, even though it was a relatively fast ride (for winter), my quads, for a change, weren't the muscles feeling the effort. I spent the ride focusing on generating power through my hamstrings on the downstroke, using the hamstrings as hip extensors and keeping my back rigid, and it was, in fact, my hamstrings which felt the efforts of the day. In other words, it wasn't just me doing a brain thing; I was, in fact, using my hamstrings for power production almost exclusively for the day.

One last observation came on a spin bike when I was cooling down from a gym session last night: There tends to be a certain RPM band around 120rpm where people tend to become very rough. Below that, it is smooth, above that, it is smooth, but there is a transition. What is actually transitioning? I now think it is transitioning between a quad dominated motion below the RPM band and a hamstring dominated motion above the RPM band, and the transition region is when the body gets a bit confused about what muscles should do what. When I focused on a rigid back and a hamstring dominated motion, the transition region seemed to disappear.

I am curious about what people think of these observations.

TL;DR - quads for knee extension vs. hamstrings for hip extension to drive pedaling motion. Discussion.

rkwaki

Brian this is a great post but may overreach for some to understand though I do agree with you with one added observation/insert.
Most know I am a big believer in weight training and though you mentioned both quads and hams the one area that did not get mentioned was the strongest muscle in the body, the glutes. Depending on what type of deadlifts you are doing (Romanian or stifflegged) the focus will be slightly different but while weight training I believe there should be an emphasis on glute training as well (squats, deadlifts, leg press).
I do think you are on point to realize something and put it into practice, you have gone from engaging one muscle group (quads), are starting to incorporate two (quads, hamstrings) and once you bring in the big daddy of the lower half (glutes) you will see another big jump.
Next time you cool down on the spin bike do a couple of minutes on each leg with only one foot on the pedal, on a spin bike you will really feel the activation of the glute as a spin bike doesn't allow for dead spots in the pedal stroke.

Carbonfiberboy 

I think you are focusing in a very productive area. Another thing to think about is knee angle. Going over the top, there's not much hip angle change, but the knee angle changes. So kick forward with the quad. Once the downstroke starts, the quad phases out and the hamstring comes in. Coming across the bottom, the hamstring dominates as there's not much change in knee angle and there is hip angle change. Hamstring domination continues until the hip flexors take over to lift the foot up to the top. On the backstroke, the ham is all you got to lift that foot. Hip flexors lift the thigh, but until the lower leg starts to dangle, you have to lift the foot with the ham. If think if you drop the ham too early, you're losing power. I keep the ham engaged until about 8 o'clock.

On long rides when I'm getting tired, I'll frequently switch back and forth from being quad dominated to ham dominated to give the other side a rest.

The roughness you speak of is the reason I do a lot of high cadence work. Neuromuscular conditioning, so that everyone knows what to do all the time. Drives me nuts when I see people on here who watch TV while on the trainer. That's when you really need to pay attention.

I used to have a problem with lifting the rear wheel, but got better by focusing on body positioning and bike balance. Which may have also changed what fired when. I'll have to think about that the next time I'm sprinting.

But lets not forget the glutes. They're a powerful hip extensor. I think straightening the back also helps glute engagement. Think about how straight your back is when deadlifting.

Brian Ratliff

This is a great point about the glutes. My weight sessions have resulted in a great looking ass, so something is happening there...

rkwaki

I agree....

Bwahahahahahahahahaha - mine is huge - and when I walk it's like two pitpulls fighting in a burlap bag...

Brian Ratliff

This is actually what I am questioning. Rather than using the quads at the top of the pedal stroke where the knee angle is most closed, I switched to focusing on the hip extensors and letting the knee do what it's going to do. It's not like the quads are taken out of the picture, but as rkwaki said, using two or three muscle groups to extend the leg on the downward portion of the pedal stroke rather than one. The hip extensors will provide power as long as the hip is still opening.

But one of the keys, I think, is working on lower back strength and rigidity. I found just focusing on keeping my back rigid was almost all I needed to do to get my hamstrings (and glutes maybe?) involved. I am not sure I need to really follow the foot at all. The foot does what it is going to do, as long as I focus on keeping my back rigid and my hip movement.

rkwaki

Brian if I am not mistaken you are a pretty big boy though too. I feel that keeping your back rigid also keeps the core tight, if the core is tight the power tends to transfer through the glutes downward more efficiently.

Brian Ratliff

I am definitely not a climber...

Hermes

I have a standing start coach. The standing start out of a gate is all about the glutes. And the only way to use them effectively is by having the back straight. Those that round their back take the glutes out of the game and use the quads and lower back. That results in a less powerful start and puts the back at risk. A standing start is a defacto dead lift. Those that just push down with their body weight do not generate enough force. Also, when you load up for the forward lunge, the hamstring should be loaded. This prevents pulling a hamstring when you explode out of the gate.


Having good posture on the bike and effectively using the glutes protects the lower back under high power loads. When I am sprinting or climbing, I keep a light touch on the handlebars and raise my chest. This flattens my back and engages the core and glutes.

airfoil71

Great post.. As a personal trainer you here very little about the hamstrings which tie into the glutes. I found positioning on a tri-bike forces the glutes and hamstring to become a bigger part of the downward movement. Hence a squat and dead lift are great training moves.. Over all riding should improve through positioning on the bike and weight training with the glutes and hamstrings.. I have noticed that I get sore in the back of my legs when on the Tri-bike as compared to being sore in my quads after a hard session with my road bike. One legged squats and summo style dead lifts are the key to dramatic improvement to overall cycling. Again, enjoyed the post.

rkwaki

I vary my legwork to include squats of varying height and weight. I found that looking for weakness has helped. One saturday I squatted 785 to 20" 4 times or so then the following saturday was looking for weakspots and found that I had a 'hole' when squatting to 13". Amazingly 10 sets of 15 reps with 135 just about killed me for a week. The weakspot? The tie in from glute to hammy.

topflightpro

Keeping your heel down through the pedal stroke also helps to better incorporate the glutes.

I've spent the last year, since significantly injuring my knee during an off-bike workout, working on my pedal stroke to engage more muscles throughout. A tight core/straight back coupled with keeping the heel down has been key to much of it.

I've also spent a great deal of time in the weight room doing squats, V-squats, deadlifts, lunges, leg presses and leg curls, as well as a variety of exercises to strengthen my hip flexors. I avoid leg extensions as they overtax my knee. And with the leg curls, I do them individually, which is significantly more difficult.

goose70

Great thread! I increased my time with the weights again around August and have really noticed the results. I actually notice it most on steady, moderately hard efforts, such as a long tempo effort into the wind. But I also notice it when I stand and sprint. That was certainly a weakness and is starting to develop into a strength, even though I'm spending less hours on the bike. In addition to the usual leg exercises, I have also been doing a more well-rounded core routine via Tom Danielson's book.

My continuing issue with all of this lower body weight training centers on recovery. I had always been told that one should rest for 24-48hours the muscles that you just weight trained. This is the excuse many of my cycling friends use for not weight training, reasoning that it causes you to miss too much riding time. One sollution might be to lower the weight so that you're not taxing the muscles quite as much. That's what I have been doing, but I'm not sure it's the best answer. Any advice/experience on this?

P.S.: Just noticed rkwaki's post about squatting 785 for reps, so I guess he won't be in the "less weight" crowd.

Ghost Ryder

Subscribed!

rkwaki

THough I will agree with trying to stay off a trained muscle group for some time a lot of this can be counteracted through proper nutrition both pre and post workout.

airfoil71

Pushing through with your heels is where your power lies when doing squats or leg press. I moved my cleats down on my shoes and noticed a big difference in power on the downward stroke. Proper nutrition and spinning after a good leg workout can minimize being sore or lactic acid build up which is what causes the soreness. Make sure to increase your protein in grams to at least your body weight and keep your reps in the 8-12 range. The discomfort that you may feel when doing leg extensions can be avoided by not straitening the leg at the top. Also, the body adapts to weight training the same way it does with cycling, so mixing it up is important. I would also encourage full body workouts to maximize health benefits. Planks are great core moves, minimize high sugar foods and stick to good carb (high fiber).

rkwaki

Hey fuggers...
There's two of us now...

topflightpro

I generally lift on Sunday afternoons, after I've gotten in my 3-5 hour Sunday morning ride. Monday has traditionally been my rest day, and by Monday evening, the soreness and inability to walk starts setting in. I get on the trainer for an hour to an hour an a half on Tuesday evening to spin it all out.

airfoil71

Weight training is all about resistance. You are getting plenty of reps when you ride. It is all about fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. You want to train both. Stick with the weight and leave the high reps for the ride. As stated earlier, proper nutrition before and afterwords and spinning or some other type of cardio will help with the soreness. Also, consider the most power is generated in the down stroke, the stronger the hams and the glutes, the more power you can generate.. The hip flexors are small when compared to the glutes and hamstrings, therefore the biggest gain will come on the down stroke through strengthening of these muscles. Not trying to be a know it all, just years of personal training and bodybuilding.

TexMac

Is the squat the main exercise for your glutes?

rkwaki

Squats, walking lunges, donkey kicks, leg press, stiff legged deadlifts, romanian deadlifts all work the glutes.

Ghost Ryder

The only downside to having firm glutes/quads/guads, is finding a pair of pants that for comfortably.
My waist is 28"-29" , but I have to go with 30"-31" just to fit comfortably around "the middle". The "back" makes the front too tight.
People always ask why I wear shorts 10-12 months of the year...

airfoil71

Try finding biking gear for a 19 1/2 inch neck, 50 inch chest and a 32 inch waist. I buy loose fit jeans and sometimes they fit right. I wear a lot of under armour compression shirts for jerseys.

Chandne

Good info. As I hit 45, I have to be careful and ease into lifts slowly, but am joining a gym and need stuff like this to help with lifts and good form.

Ghost Ryder

I was talking about normal clothing.
Cycling gear if fine cause its meant to fit tight, & don't like all my jeans/pants to be slim fit/tight.