Two local cyclist hit and killed this morning. Very sad.
#52
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26427 Post(s)
Liked 10,382 Times
in
7,210 Posts
Lol on the "lunch" comment. There is the eating of food but no lunch hour. No one should feel too sorry for me, I make the schedule and could schedule lunch if I wanted (but I could not ride, no shower at work and not enough time for a meaningful ride and a shower too. plus my bike is at home one hour away from my job). If I schedule lunch, I will get home even later- my job ends when I am done for the day, whenever that might be, 4pm or 10pm. FYI, I am no slave driver, all my people get a lunch break, just not me.
I do have good lights. No reflectors though and light but non-reflective clothes, so I could definitely make improvements there.
H
I do have good lights. No reflectors though and light but non-reflective clothes, so I could definitely make improvements there.
H
forever on two double a batteries, and when not on your bike, you can use them at all night raves.
This is not to be considered as a plug for ecstasy.
__________________
#53
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26427 Post(s)
Liked 10,382 Times
in
7,210 Posts
I do, however, see a greatdeal of opinion masquerading as fact....never a good idea.
If you want to state, "Bicyclists are hit by motorists and frequently killed because the motorists don't see them," I'm good.
Why do I think that's not gonna be agreeable to you ?
__________________
#54
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26427 Post(s)
Liked 10,382 Times
in
7,210 Posts
#56
I'm doing it wrong.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,875
Bikes: Rivendell Appaloosa, Rivendell Frank Jones Sr., Trek Fuel EX9, Kona Jake the Snake CR, Niner Sir9
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9742 Post(s)
Liked 2,812 Times
in
1,664 Posts
Sure it is more dangerous, like driving a car at night is more dangerous or like flying an airplane at night is more dangerous or jogging at night is more dangerous. All these activities can be performed safely at night though.
#57
Has a magic bike
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,590
Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Mentioned: 699 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4456 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times
in
157 Posts
H
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
It is apparently very important for you to believe that with regard to cycling. Fine. I hope it works out well for you. Relatively speaking, however, choosing to ride at night recreationally is not IMO a good bet. If night riding is what is needed to make your living or something else critical to your existence, I can only say be careful and good luck. Different strokes for different folks.
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Wild and Wonderful
Posts: 99
Bikes: 2014 CAAD10-3 2000 LeMond BA
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I believe this has gone way off topic. Regardless of the circumstances two human beings who shared a passion that we all share, lost their lives. Whether it was due to improper lighting or driver error is not the most important part of this. It is that children lost their fathers, wives lost their husbands, and mothers lost their sons. Please keep that in mind while you argue the statistics of how and when our brethren perish.
#60
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 33,006
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Mentioned: 325 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11975 Post(s)
Liked 6,655 Times
in
3,486 Posts
I don't think there's any question that riding at night is more dangerous than riding in daylight. Even perfect vision is diminished by darkness. It's a risk you choose to take if you insist on riding after sundown.
As to whether riding "safely" with a full set of lights and reflectors makes you as visible at night as riding during the day, I think that's just wishful thinking. Certainly a thorough study could settle that theory, but personally I would have serious, serious doubts. I wouldn't bet a thin dime on it.
As to whether riding "safely" with a full set of lights and reflectors makes you as visible at night as riding during the day, I think that's just wishful thinking. Certainly a thorough study could settle that theory, but personally I would have serious, serious doubts. I wouldn't bet a thin dime on it.
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
#61
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 33,006
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Mentioned: 325 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11975 Post(s)
Liked 6,655 Times
in
3,486 Posts
I believe this has gone way off topic. Regardless of the circumstances two human beings who shared a passion that we all share, lost their lives. Whether it was due to improper lighting or driver error is not the most important part of this. It is that children lost their fathers, wives lost their husbands, and mothers lost their sons. Please keep that in mind while you argue the statistics of how and when our brethren perish.
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Looking at the numbers, drunk, ninja, and/or salmons account for about 23% of fatalities. Not sure that completely explains night time fatalities.
Problem is that the data just aren't very reliable with regard to actual accident causes, with many listed as uknown, and the data on how many miles are ridden is not very good, and certainly not good for how many before and after dark.
Problem is that the data just aren't very reliable with regard to actual accident causes, with many listed as uknown, and the data on how many miles are ridden is not very good, and certainly not good for how many before and after dark.
You said that 3% of the riding is at night, so it's a little more than twice as dangerous with respect to accidents. When you have an accident at night, it's more likely to be fatal. Seems reasonable. I'll speculate that riding drunk, ninja and/or salmon (your 23% of fatalities) is even more dangerous at night than in daytime.
Maybe none of which has any bearing on this tragedy. Police Lt. Darren Paul said that there were no immediate signs that the driver was impaired, crossing that off his list of possible causes I guess. . I think that the reason we as cyclists start looking at the cyclists in these accidents, and why we tend to fixate on lights, reflectors, helmets, riding "correctly" and even avoiding riding at night is because we don't want to accept that these accidents are sometimes random. It must have been something they did, that we wouldn't do, so it won't happen to us, or so we hope. But in reality I have no idea what actually happened there, and out of respect for those two guys and the people they left behind I'd rather not speculate.
#63
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,539
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3891 Post(s)
Liked 1,940 Times
in
1,385 Posts
Dead flat and wide open. One can see car lights a very long way at night. Someone wasn't following the rules. I doubt that the brightness of bike lights would have made any difference in this case. I do ride at night occasionally during events, but I don't like it.
Our local randonneuring club frequently rides all night. Thinking back on it, we have more problems in daylight. I think we slow down and are more cautious at night. Commuters do seem more likely to have serious accidents at night. Maybe the environment, maybe the number of cycling hours? In the city, most commuters I see are wearing black, very poorly lit, and take what are to me crazy chances. I understand that many bike commuters are doing it because of lack of funds or a DUI.
If you do ride at night, wear reflective clothing, a reflective Sam Browne belt, ankle bands, run the brightest lights you can (Dinotte are good), keep them charged, and act like a car.
Our local randonneuring club frequently rides all night. Thinking back on it, we have more problems in daylight. I think we slow down and are more cautious at night. Commuters do seem more likely to have serious accidents at night. Maybe the environment, maybe the number of cycling hours? In the city, most commuters I see are wearing black, very poorly lit, and take what are to me crazy chances. I understand that many bike commuters are doing it because of lack of funds or a DUI.
If you do ride at night, wear reflective clothing, a reflective Sam Browne belt, ankle bands, run the brightest lights you can (Dinotte are good), keep them charged, and act like a car.
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,078
Bikes: Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Can anyone explain what happened? I looked at the Google map view but I still don't understand what happened.
In the dark I ride with bright lights, plenty of reflective clothing and a mirror. And even then I never feel as safe as I do in daylight.
In the dark I ride with bright lights, plenty of reflective clothing and a mirror. And even then I never feel as safe as I do in daylight.
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,726
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,592 Times
in
1,436 Posts
What might be more valuable than speculation, or formulaic warnings of the hazards of night riding, is an accident reconstruction showing the position and speed of all the vehicles, and better yet a simulation done under the same light conditions to see what each person saw (or could or should have seen). That kind of reconstruction might show how and why the accident occurred, and how similar ones might be prevented.
Accidents like this are always sad, especially for those close to the people involved. They might be used to gain insights, but shouldn't be capitalized on by people trying to send some kind of message.
BTW- don't take anything I said here, except for a sense of sadness, as applying to this specific accident. I have no idea about whether the cyclists were properly lit or not, nor of the their lane positions, speed and direction, or any issue of possible cause. My post is simply to counter the notion that night riding is unreasonably dangerous. Many of have to do it as 4 season commuters, or at other times, and it can be as safe or risky as we make it.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 03-13-14 at 06:17 PM.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Go Ducks!
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The most visible cyclists I've ever seen, while driving, were at night. Machka figured out they were in the early stages of a randonee... we just crossed paths up at Hood Canal in WA. They could not possibly be missed. A pack of 6-8 riders was WAY brighter than any car, or cars. Lesson: it is possible to be ridiculously visible at night on a bike in this day of LED's.
I run lights that are intended to be annoying to motorists in daylight. I will not die, because I didn't get noticed, over $100.
My heart hurts for the guys that got hit. An obvious lesson is: BE SEEN! I expect they'd agree, hindsight being 20/20 and all.
I run lights that are intended to be annoying to motorists in daylight. I will not die, because I didn't get noticed, over $100.
My heart hurts for the guys that got hit. An obvious lesson is: BE SEEN! I expect they'd agree, hindsight being 20/20 and all.
Last edited by Long Tom; 03-14-14 at 12:57 AM.
#67
Still can't climb
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Limey in Taiwan
Posts: 23,024
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
why would anyone want to ride in the dark? i do it if i mis-time a ride or if i stick to a mup.
__________________
coasting, few quotes are worthy of him, and of those, even fewer printable in a family forum......quote 3alarmer
No @coasting, you should stay 100% as you are right now, don't change a thing....quote Heathpack
coasting, few quotes are worthy of him, and of those, even fewer printable in a family forum......quote 3alarmer
No @coasting, you should stay 100% as you are right now, don't change a thing....quote Heathpack
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,726
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,592 Times
in
1,436 Posts
The math is easy, if you live far enough north commute to work by bike and work an 8 hour day, odds are you'll be riding in the dark at one point or another.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#69
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Fuji Tahoe, Scott Sub 35, Kona Rove, Trek Verve+2
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked 722 Times
in
366 Posts
Regardless of the stats and horror stories, cycling is still safer than blobbing on the couch, day or night.
Thoughts for the families of these guys.
Thoughts for the families of these guys.
#70
Portland Fred
I don't know what happened in the accident in the article. Maybe there was an error in judgement on the part of the driver, the cyclists or both. And sometimes there are weird circumstances that lead to accidents.
But as someone who rode 5K miles in all weather conditions and in the dark for many years on two lane highways where a number of other cyclists were killed, there is nothing particularly unsafe about it. If you have proper lighting and attire, you are easily visible at much greater distances than you are in the daylight.
I would go so far as to say that I think riding in the dark is considerably safer than riding in bright sun (a serious safety problem that few people think about) if done properly.
#72
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: take your time, enjoy the scenery, it will be there when you get to it
Posts: 7,281
Bikes: 07 IRO BFGB fixed-gear, 07 Pedal Force RS
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I have lived car-free for over 20 years, so night commutes necessitate riding in the dark. Arizona summers are quite hot, so many folks enjoy night rides from June-September.
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Yes, the serious accident rate is much higher at night. But what's missing from your analysis is the large number (maybe a majority) od cyclists who are unlighted or inadequately lighted. A properly lighted (front,rear and sides) is as visible at night as a rider in daylight. If you factor background camouflage, and distractions, a properly lighted night cyclist is probably more visible than one in the daytime, and certainly more than one hidden by the glare of a low sun at dawn or dusk.
What might be more valuable than speculation, or formulaic warnings of the hazards of night riding, is an accident reconstruction showing the position and speed of all the vehicles, and better yet a simulation done under the same light conditions to see what each person saw (or could or should have seen). That kind of reconstruction might show how and why the accident occurred, and how similar ones might be prevented.
Accidents like this are always sad, especially for those close to the people involved. They might be used to gain insights, but shouldn't be capitalized on by people trying to send some kind of message.
BTW- don't take anything I said here, except for a sense of sadness, as applying to this specific accident. I have no idea about whether the cyclists were properly lit or not, nor of the their lane positions, speed and direction, or any issue of possible cause. My post is simply to counter the notion that night riding is unreasonably dangerous. Many of have to do it as 4 season commuters, or at other times, and it can be as safe or risky as we make it.
What might be more valuable than speculation, or formulaic warnings of the hazards of night riding, is an accident reconstruction showing the position and speed of all the vehicles, and better yet a simulation done under the same light conditions to see what each person saw (or could or should have seen). That kind of reconstruction might show how and why the accident occurred, and how similar ones might be prevented.
Accidents like this are always sad, especially for those close to the people involved. They might be used to gain insights, but shouldn't be capitalized on by people trying to send some kind of message.
BTW- don't take anything I said here, except for a sense of sadness, as applying to this specific accident. I have no idea about whether the cyclists were properly lit or not, nor of the their lane positions, speed and direction, or any issue of possible cause. My post is simply to counter the notion that night riding is unreasonably dangerous. Many of have to do it as 4 season commuters, or at other times, and it can be as safe or risky as we make it.
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,201
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times
in
177 Posts
Your reasoning provides some valuable insights, and I value the discussion we (all) have had on this topic. However, I think it unfair to dismiss my genuine concern for other riders' safety as "formulaic warnings" and "trying to send some kind of message". If I represent a position of extreme caution on this topic which doesn't convince many others, so be it. That doesn't diminish the honest concern I feel for riders' safety and my desire to speak to it as I deem appropriate. I certainly have nothing to gain from delivering the message.
We understand you're uncomfortable riding at night but many of us who regularly ride in the dark are comfortable with the risk.
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
As you have made completely clear. That is the kind of end point one expects from a debate.