Stucky

When it comes to comparisons, I think the level of the bike matters more than what it is made of. i.e. if you compare a high-end bike of any materail, to another high-end bike made of a different material, assuming they're the same general type of bike and of similar geometry, there's not likely to be a huge difference. But if you compare bikes of substantially different quality- i.e. a low-end bike to a high-end bike, then there are going to be bigger differences, whether they're made of different materials, or even the same material.

rms13

My bike may be of a bygone era (haha) but it still weighs in around 20 lb as build with steel fork and is stiff enough in the right places with the state of the art 1989 advancements in tubing and frame building

bruce19

My main ride is not old world but it is steel. A Guru steel that weighs 18 lbs. I can't tell you that it's "better" or "worse" than my AL Masi but I do enjoy it.

Scooper

My 'go to' bike for 95% of my riding is an 8 year old lugged steel Waterford RS-22 made with polished 953 stainless tubes.

JohnJ80

After having Aluminum, Steel and Carbon Fiber Frames, I pretty much agree with this. There are some relatively subtle differences and in some cases, using particular materials in certain parts of the frame can pay good ride qualities dividends (ie. a carbon fork is usually superior to other materials).

Where the difference in materials lie is in custom frames. It's much easier, and cheaper, to get a custom frame in steel than pretty much any other material. You can find custom frame builders even in carbon fiber, but the cost is going to be higher and your choices on builders will be less. That is where steel has a significant advantage. Steel also has a bigger choice of frame tubing to meet choices in weight, ride compliance, etc... A good steel frame builder can make a steel frame that is light, stiff and has good compliance for a comfortable ride. There really are few compromises and a lot of advantages to getting a custom steel frame.

Your bike is gorgeous. One of the reasons I decided to build my latest bike out of Stainless.

J.

redfooj

Lugged steel is just prettier

Sixty Fiver

The old guy is 40 years old... running Ultegra 8 speed with a triple since the guy who rides it is a little older.

rpenmanparker 

This is a bicycling myth that just won't die. With a custom steel frame you may get exactly what you want, or mostly what your want, or maybe not too much of what you want. Yet all the time the builder will be telling you it is just perfect for you, because, after all, that was what you asked for and what he intended it to be. If you are lucky, you will be convinced by the whole rigamarole and think you have the greatest bike for you that could ever be. Whether or not that is really true makes no difference as long as you believe it. Or on the other hand you may be very unhappy for a very long time.

The likelihood of getting what you want are so much greater by trying out the highly optimized off-the-rack frames of the major builders. When you find the one that is perfect for you, that is it, no question about it. You don't have to depend upon a more or less competent craftsman to interpret your notions about a best bike and hit the bullseye on his one and only try. You try what is available and pick the one that best matches your taste. Unless your definition of perfect is custom built, and nothing else will do.

Why should an off-the-rack meet your needs, you may ask. Well the major makers have put a lot of money, time and effort into developing the best compromises of all the bike attributes. And not in just one road bike type, but in all the popular bike types like aggressive criterium, laid back endurance, aero road, tt/tri and so on. Also all-around types. Many, many test bikes have been produced to fine tune the characteristics. How can a custom builder hope to do as well in converting the description of your needs to the final product given just one chance to get it right?

If your size requirements are so unusual as to make a custom frame your only recourse, so be it. Good luck with that.

JohnJ80

Well, I might be inclined to agree with you if it is a case of someone who doesn't really know what they want except a custom frame.

I've been building and buying bike for 3 decades and I'm pretty sure I know what I want and need. When I built this bike, the first completely custom frame I've bought, my average speed went up, various fit problems went away and the bike handles for me much better than any other bike I've ever owned. Before I built this bike I rode bikes from 10+ different manufacturers and couldn't get any of them to be the fit that I wanted.

My problem is that I have long legs, long torso and short arms. What this means is if I get on a given frame if it's fit to meet my leg length, the top tube is way too long and I wind up with a too short stem and too little weight on the front wheel. If it's fit to meet my top tube length the frame is too small and I'm cramped. Never mind the chronic neck issues I have from an injury long ago and trying to accommodate that on a bike that's built around pure race geometries for what passes for performance bikes right now. I just wish I'd done this a long time ago - that is my only regret.

So I think you're wrong in a lot broader range of cases. I agree that manufacturers try and fit a broad range of people with a given frame design. But it's the same thing with anything else, they're lucky if that works for 50% of the people. It's that way with pretty much anything that is body sized - clothes, shoes, sporting equipment, bikes, etc...

What bike manufacturers are counting on is that most people don't ride much more than an hour at a time and don't do it all that often. So you can adapt to that but after some long days in the saddle and especially after a few thousand miles a season, that adaptability doesn't hold up.

Custom frames aren't for everyone obviously but if you know what you are doing and what you want, with a good builder it can and will come out pretty great. Hard to believe all of these great frame builders out there are making a business out of ripping off their customers with fake value based around pure hype and myth. Hard to believe all these small builders have the marketing muscle to pull that off.

J.

Bandera

I've worn bespoke suits and shirts for a good long while.
There is nothing like an exacting and proper fit, superior construction and a flattering style in the material weight and fabric of one's choice for real all day comfort and a smart un-rumpled look.
It's also nice to get a birthday card from one's tailor in HK.

A fully custom frameset from a qualified builder of knowledge and repute is a similar purchase for an experienced cyclist who understands Requirements Planning to fully convey what the intended use, equipment to be installed, personal data and budget are. It helps to understand frame materials, design and construction but clear accurate communication w/ the builder is essential as well as careful monitoring of Quality, Budget and Time. If one does not know precisely what is required it's a Project that is doomed to fail, but in the color of your choice......

You wouldn't have your tailor Guess which side you dress on, would you?

-Bandera

rpenmanparker 

It isn't about not knowing what you want. It is about the builder hitting that nail on the head on the one-and-only try he gets to meet your expectations. And as I said, it is one thing to need a custom bike to get a decent fit and quite another to think that that good fitting bike will have exactly the riding qualities you ordered up.

rpenmanparker 

As I recently recounted in another thread, I grew up in the men's tailoring business. My father and his two brothers were all custom tailors. So I know what you are talking about. But I also know that just like with bikes, there are all levels of custom tailoring from crap to the sublime. And don't forget, tailored clothes that aren't exactly right can usually be altered to fit, and those changes back integrated into your measurements for future orders. With bikes, not so much. The whole point unlike clothing, there are aspects to bicycle satisfaction that are not obvious on the surface. The builder chooses tubing and the connecting fixtures and puts it all together, but how can that be as fine tuned as what goes on at a major manufacturer research center? No way.

I stand by my statement. The perfection of custom frames is a myth that is largely unsupported by reality. Sure they can be okay, and after spending all that money and getting that beautiful paint job, you will be convinced it is wonderful. Nevertheless the notion that you know what your want in a conscious way, you communicate it accurately, and it is translated perfectly in a bicycle frame is simply absurd.

Here is another analogy: You tell the waiter you want your steak medium. Sometimes the famous chef gets it right, sometimes overcooked, sometimes undercooked. Maybe that restaurant leans a little rare for medium. With steak, you can send it back or have it redone from scratch. What about with a custom frame. Is there any reason to believe that a frame builder is less susceptible his own prejudices about what stiff means or to human error than the chef? Now if you walk past a display of a selection of just cooked steaks cut open for you to view, you can pick the one that suits you perfectly. Same with off-the-rack bikes.

mr. peugeot

Steel is all I ever ride and quite often it's one of my 80s bikes. Never ridden a full carbon frame; not interested and beyond my price range. Ten years ago I bought a Giant OCR 3, rode the snot out of it for four seasons, then sold it for a vintage steel ride. Haven't ridden an al bike since renting a hybrid on a vacation four years ago.

Bandera

It's how any Project is properly managed and delivered to: Meet Scope Quality, Requirements, Budget and Timeline.
There is a well defined methodology that works quite well for projects large and small, if followed with precision and rigor.
"Perfection" is a word with no meaning in the project management process, "within defined quality limits" is.

PMI | Project Management Institute

-Bandera: Retired PMP

rpenmanparker 

I completely agree with you, and if fully understand what your are talking about having considerable experience with quality management. But are you so naïve as to think your custom frame builder has the slightest idea what you are talking about?

Are you even suggesting you can quantify your frame preferences and that the builder has systems to meet your expectations worthy of the name, "quality management"? That would be delusional.

Bandera

This one does, can't speak for others.

"Mercian Cycles began in Derby in 1946 and are still building bespoke lightweight steel frames, by hand, using traditional frame-building methods with one craftsman building each frame from start to finish."

Mercian Cycles - Custom Cycle Frames & Cycle Shop



They have considerable experience and a very well controlled process to assure that the finished product meets the customer's requirements.

PS: Are you used to tossing "naïve" about in discussions with your professional peers or reserved for inter-web forum use?


-Bandera

rpenmanparker 

First, I am an equal opportunity insulter.

With regard to Mercian, I consider them a terrific frame building house. No custom frame I would rather own than Mercian. And they may have all kinds of process control like charting a host of variables like their times from order placement to delivery, shipping efficiency, complaints, rework, etc. But what quantity could they possibly use to determine how well they actually produced a frame with the characteristics desired by the customer? For example would you tell them what lateral and vertical stiffness numbers you expect at the bottom bracket, and then they test for that with suitable tolerance limits above and below the requested number in their QA/QC lab? I don't think so on either end of that proposition. You don't know what to tell them, and I guarantee they don't build to such a specification. So what was the point of bringing them up?

Stucky

Another thing: Unless it's a combination of geometry; sizes; materials and methods that the builder has specifically tried already, how will he even know what it will do? (And if it's something he's already tried, then it isn't truly custom...just very limited production).

Custom might be an option for people who have unusual bodily proportions....but with all the zillions of bikes on the market, if a person of normal proportions can't find a bike that'll work 100% for them......

rpenmanparker 

Very well said. So how come you and I are the only two people on the 41 who understand this?

bbattle

What is your point? Are you perhaps going to tell us of a company that does what you say Mercian does not? This would be exciting news, especially since, as you say, you don't know what to tell them?

People tell custom frame builders what type of riding they do or hope to do and the frame builder selects tubing and lugs/brackets accordingly. A good builder will know what questions to ask in order to get the information he needs. If you put them to the test, they could quote you numbers and then surpass them but they would probably rather tell you to STFU and go away.

What vertical and lateral stiffness number do YOU expect at the bottom bracket? Have you had your bicycle frame tested to see that it passed suitable tolerance limits(whatever those are)?

In short, what are you talking about?

BTW,

BillyD

Others understand it. It's just a moot point. So moot that it's not even necessary to enter one's radar and quibble about.

rpenmanparker 

Well, lots of folks get steered wrong by this myth. Does it matter. Nah, I guess not. Damn.

rpenmanparker 

Boy, have you missed the point! Because we (including me) can't precisely describe what we want, our best bet is to buy our bikes off the rack...fit and paint choices permitting. We may not know how to say exactly what we want (in a quantitative way), but we should know it when we feel it. Hence the advisability of trying ready-made until we find what we like.

bbattle

Ah, gotcha! I joined the conversation too late. Sorry about that.

I still will stress the point that if you tell the builder what you want, or think you want, he/she can get it done.

I do understand that it takes a certain amount of experience in order to understand/know what you want. In the real estate business, there's a saying: "buyers are liars". That's because the buyers are not good at articulating exactly what they want.

rpenmanparker 

Zackly.