Roadie's probable recklessness leaves a woman brain dead
09-23-14, 09:29 PM
#401
Senior Member
...have you ever skied at a downhill place ? Its a matter of prudence, individual skill, and conditions.
It's not unusual for a ski patrolman to pull someone off the hill for a while for skiing out of control.
So yes, maybe you do lack the judgement required to ride faster than 10mph, but I cannot tell you from here.
Let me know when you start crashing into things, and we can discuss it further.
...
It's not unusual for a ski patrolman to pull someone off the hill for a while for skiing out of control.
So yes, maybe you do lack the judgement required to ride faster than 10mph, but I cannot tell you from here.
Let me know when you start crashing into things, and we can discuss it further.
...
Think about it.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-23-14, 09:29 PM
#402
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,851
Bikes: everywhere
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12778 Post(s)
Liked 7,695 Times
in
4,084 Posts
I have a feeling the cops asked how much that fancy bike cost him and he said he's got about $4k into it.
09-23-14, 09:36 PM
#403
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
So if you can't tell me how fast to go, but rather leave it up to me, am I evil and deserving to be jailed if I make a mistake in my judgement that still leaves me within the law? Doesn't sound like this guy was exceeding the speed limit, and he doesn't sound like he was out of control. But he did make a mistake in judgement. Does he then go to jail for this?
Think about it.
Think about it.
09-23-14, 09:38 PM
#404
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Because otherwise... where are the shifters? Are we trying to wishful think our way to brakes on the aerobars? If we suppose he's using brake levers on the aerobars... well, he's got an extra set of brake levers and is down a pair of shifters. And who does this, putting brake levers on aerobars, anyway? Think, man, think!
None of this is very persuasive. All we have is that they aren't brake levers, because Brian wouldn't use them.
09-23-14, 09:38 PM
#405
Senior Member
3alarmer: Let's put this another way. If you are driving on a two lane country road and a car coming the other way swerves into your lane and so to avoid him you swerve towards the right hand edge of the road. At that moment, a lady pops out to check her mail and you run her over dead. Do you then go to jail? You were de facto going too fast for conditions; obvious because you ran down a pedestrian and so should have been going slower. Where do you draw that line?
The courts draw it at following traffic law. You evidently don't, since you are passing judgement prior to fact finding. Where do you draw it?
The courts draw it at following traffic law. You evidently don't, since you are passing judgement prior to fact finding. Where do you draw it?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-23-14, 09:39 PM
#406
Senior Member
Yup, and likely why he retained a lawyer.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-23-14, 09:40 PM
#407
Senior Member
Sorry you can't be persuaded. Not my job; do your own homework. Nobody else is confused about this anymore. Have you really not seen a triathlon or time trial bike before? They are all basically set up the same. Shifters on the aerobars, brake levers on the base bar.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-23-14, 09:45 PM
#408
Senior Member
Could be. He's got some decent stuff on it. Fancier than all my bikes...
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-23-14, 09:46 PM
#409
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
...yeah, for a guy who lives in the Bronx and has the motto Speed is Life, I'm surprised it took this long.
__________________
09-23-14, 09:51 PM
#410
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Sorry you can't be persuaded. Not my job; do your own homework. Nobody else is confused about this anymore. Have you really not seen a triathlon or time trial bike before? They are all basically set up the same. Shifters on the aerobars, brake levers on the base bar.
I don't think it's I that is confused. I think that I'm the only one who did any homework.
09-23-14, 09:51 PM
#411
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
3alarmer: Let's put this another way. If you are driving on a two lane country road and a car coming the other way swerves into your lane and so to avoid him you swerve towards the right hand edge of the road. At that moment, a lady pops out to check her mail and you run her over dead. Do you then go to jail? You were de facto going too fast for conditions; obvious because you ran down a pedestrian and so should have been going slower. Where do you draw that line?
The courts draw it at following traffic law. You evidently don't, since you are passing judgement prior to fact finding. Where do you draw it?
The courts draw it at following traffic law. You evidently don't, since you are passing judgement prior to fact finding. Where do you draw it?
I'm not gonna waste time restating it because of short attention spans. One more time here, with feeling. This is an internet forum, not a court proceeding.
I'm curious at this point. Have you actually read anything I've written to this point, or is it all a solipsistic debate with an imaginary arch-nemesis ?
__________________
09-23-14, 10:05 PM
#412
Senior Member
You haven't given any other reason that it can't be a brake lever, other than that you wouldn't use one. They sell aerobar brake levers on that site. They sell integrated aerobar brake levers. Which, in fact, look more like the bike's aerobars than anything posted here.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-23-14, 10:08 PM
#413
Senior Member
Arch-nemesis? If I said yes, would you feel better?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-23-14, 10:26 PM
#414
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,851
Bikes: everywhere
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12778 Post(s)
Liked 7,695 Times
in
4,084 Posts
You haven't given any other reason that it can't be a brake lever, other than that you wouldn't use one. They sell aerobar brake levers on that site. They sell integrated aerobar brake levers. Which, in fact, look more like the bike's aerobars than anything posted here.
I don't think it's I that is confused. I think that I'm the only one who did any homework.
I don't think it's I that is confused. I think that I'm the only one who did any homework.
Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 09-23-14 at 10:32 PM.
09-23-14, 10:31 PM
#415
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
Bikes: Jamis Icon Pro
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Have you actually been to Central Park any time in, oh, the past decade or two?
Cyclists have been riding flat-out in the park for years. Go to the park at 4:00 on pretty much any day, and you'll see cyclists flying through the park at high speeds.
Collisions are rare, and are not uniformly the fault of cyclists. Fatal collisions between cyclists and pedestrians are extremely rare; between 1996 and 2006, there were only 11 fatal bike-pedestrian collisions in all of NYC, none in Central Park. (In comparison, about 150 pedestrians were killed by cars in 2013 alone. As one blog put it: Every NYC Traffic Death Should Be Investigated Like the Central Park Crash.)
The Central Park Conservancy is aware of this. So is the NYPD. And the Mayor's office. And many groups (cycling, running and other) that use the Park regularly.
People riding fast through Central Park is routine. A collision like this is an exceptionally rare event. Maybe we should keep that in mind, when deciding how to address these issues, and where to allocate our resources.
It is acceptable to ride fast in Central Park.
It is the only place in NYC for many roadies to train.
NYC has in fact improved lane markings and traffic controls in Central Park. The NYPD has been cracking down on fast riders at stop lights for several years. In fact, they were doing a crackdown on the very day when the incident happened.
Ignorance is not a justification for breaking the law. "I'm stupid" is a stupid defense, and it doesn't work.
However, Marshall was doing the same thing he's been doing for several years, and that hundreds of cyclists do every day; riding through Central Park. He hasn't been charged with any criminal activity. We don't know if he was speeding. It doesn't sound like he was running a red light. He swerved to avoid a bunch of pedestrians who moved into the crosswalk, and in swerving he hit someone else. A lot of facts are unclear, and if it goes to court, will be debated extensively.
I can see how someone who doesn't live here, and doesn't have any clue how the Park is actually used, might think Marshall was doing something unusual or extreme. He wasn't. You might want to keep that in mind, before passing judgment from afar.
Cyclists have been riding flat-out in the park for years. Go to the park at 4:00 on pretty much any day, and you'll see cyclists flying through the park at high speeds.
Collisions are rare, and are not uniformly the fault of cyclists. Fatal collisions between cyclists and pedestrians are extremely rare; between 1996 and 2006, there were only 11 fatal bike-pedestrian collisions in all of NYC, none in Central Park. (In comparison, about 150 pedestrians were killed by cars in 2013 alone. As one blog put it: Every NYC Traffic Death Should Be Investigated Like the Central Park Crash.)
The Central Park Conservancy is aware of this. So is the NYPD. And the Mayor's office. And many groups (cycling, running and other) that use the Park regularly.
People riding fast through Central Park is routine. A collision like this is an exceptionally rare event. Maybe we should keep that in mind, when deciding how to address these issues, and where to allocate our resources.
It is acceptable to ride fast in Central Park.
It is the only place in NYC for many roadies to train.
NYC has in fact improved lane markings and traffic controls in Central Park. The NYPD has been cracking down on fast riders at stop lights for several years. In fact, they were doing a crackdown on the very day when the incident happened.
Ignorance is not a justification for breaking the law. "I'm stupid" is a stupid defense, and it doesn't work.
However, Marshall was doing the same thing he's been doing for several years, and that hundreds of cyclists do every day; riding through Central Park. He hasn't been charged with any criminal activity. We don't know if he was speeding. It doesn't sound like he was running a red light. He swerved to avoid a bunch of pedestrians who moved into the crosswalk, and in swerving he hit someone else. A lot of facts are unclear, and if it goes to court, will be debated extensively.
I can see how someone who doesn't live here, and doesn't have any clue how the Park is actually used, might think Marshall was doing something unusual or extreme. He wasn't. You might want to keep that in mind, before passing judgment from afar.
In NYC, Pedestrian-Cyclist Crash Deaths as Rare as Lawsuits
So for almost the past 20 years, there have been only been 15 fatalities.
So true, I easily hit 30+ mph at certain parts in the park. Then there are the guys that are even faster doing laps. Pedestrians and cyclists dont follow the lights (most) but they all do look before crossing. Its actually pretty orderly considering the amount of tourists/cyclists/vehicles (and horses lol) in the park.
09-23-14, 11:06 PM
#416
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
...if you want me to feel better, try to read what i write and respond to that, instead of something culled from half excerpts and imagination. #thankyou
__________________
09-23-14, 11:15 PM
#417
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ype=blogs&_r=0
A Death in Central Park Raises Real Questions About Bicyclist Behavior - CityLab
More than 500 New York City residents are injured badly enough to be treated in hospitals after being struck by bicyclists each year, according to an analysis by Hunter College professors. The number, while small compared with the number of pedestrians injured by cars, is a much higher figure than an earlier study by the same researchers found.
But people who ride bikes need to accept their responsibilities as road users just the way that people who drive cars do. If you are traveling at a high rate of speed —25 miles per hour is the speed limit for all vehicles in the park, and it is not uncommon for road cyclists to achieve it—you have to acknowledge that you can kill someone or grievously injure them, just as you could if you were driving a car. That unshakeable reality means you should be prepared to stop and yield where you know that people are quite legitimately walking in a relaxed, non-vigilant mode.
And yet every New Yorker who has cared to notice has seen people on bikes riding at competitive speeds in environments where pedestrians behave unpredictably—on the Central Park and Prospect Park loop roads, on the tourist-crammed Brooklyn Bridge, on the West Side Greenway. Way too often, these cyclists are yelling, “Get out of the way!” or similar words as they whiz through the crowds, missing pedestrians by inches.
Saying that people on foot just need to be careful and keep their wits about them, that sometimes “accidents just happen,” is a sad echo of what people who defend reckless drivers say.
And yet every New Yorker who has cared to notice has seen people on bikes riding at competitive speeds in environments where pedestrians behave unpredictably—on the Central Park and Prospect Park loop roads, on the tourist-crammed Brooklyn Bridge, on the West Side Greenway. Way too often, these cyclists are yelling, “Get out of the way!” or similar words as they whiz through the crowds, missing pedestrians by inches.
Saying that people on foot just need to be careful and keep their wits about them, that sometimes “accidents just happen,” is a sad echo of what people who defend reckless drivers say.
__________________
09-23-14, 11:18 PM
#418
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
So if you can't tell me how fast to go, but rather leave it up to me, am I evil and deserving to be jailed if I make a mistake in my judgement that still leaves me within the law? Doesn't sound like this guy was exceeding the speed limit, and he doesn't sound like he was out of control. But he did make a mistake in judgement. Does he then go to jail for this?
Think about it.
Think about it.
__________________
09-23-14, 11:25 PM
#419
Senior Member
Funny. I think you know what I mean.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 09-23-14 at 11:29 PM.
09-23-14, 11:36 PM
#420
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
...at this point in the thread, I don't think I really know what anyone means. #stoppedmakingsenseprettyearlyon
__________________
09-23-14, 11:41 PM
#421
Senior Member
...at this point in the thread, I don't think I really know what anyone means. #stoppedmakingsenseprettyearlyon
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-24-14, 04:14 AM
#422
Senior Member
That it's not a stock bike, and so can't be priced like one. Look, it's not a $4k bike. That line was put into the tabloid report as an exaggeration. Someone found a bike with similar handlebars on a website and saw it cost about $4k and so reported that. But it doesn't matter. We aren't talking about the NY Times here and nobody cares about the price of the bike anyway. The author was just trying to add color; it is an "expensive sport bike" ridden by a "serious rider" as opposed to a homeless guy tooling along on a Huffy.
And also that nobody cares. You have written more than anybody in this thread about something that supposedly doesn't matter.
09-24-14, 04:22 AM
#423
Serious Cyclist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: RVA
Posts: 9,308
Bikes: Emonda SL6
Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5721 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times
in
99 Posts
My only contribution to this thread is to post in the hopeful expectation that we can all stop using hashtags on this forum. The joy of using an internet forum vs. twitter or whatever is that we can write lengthy posts if we want, with proper grammar and punctuation, because we don't have character limits and most of us are viewing these posts on real computers versus cell phone screens. The whole hashtag/acronym thing is ironic and funny sometimes and useful in the context of twitter, but if you're using it to make a point in an argument on a forum, it's just annoying.
09-24-14, 05:03 AM
#425
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, duh Bronx.
Posts: 3,578
Bikes: Salsa Ti Warbird- 2014/ November RAIL52s
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Just imagine if the NYPD issued summonses to jaywalkers... It would go a long way for safety if so many foot pedestrians didn't ignore the law.
Last edited by UnfilteredDregs; 09-24-14 at 05:20 AM.