Fully automated shifting
10-15-14 | 10:14 AM
#51
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Just wanted to answer your questions, as disingenuous as they happen to be. Don't be obtuse. Of course it is both about me being faster than some and slower than some others. That is what this idea is about, making it irrelevant who is faster on a given day and who is slower, speaking about "friendly" rides of course. I am neither the fastest rider in the world nor the slowest. So I can see this thing in both directions. Sometimes it will be me needing the help, sometimes someone else.
And you are wrong. I gave you a specific case where it is important to bolster someone's performance for the ride to be enjoyable (not competitive, just enjoyable) for both riders. Maybe you are the perfect friend, but that isn't very common. If riding with a slower rider is painful for you, unless you are hoping to be nominated for sainthood, you aren't going to do it very often. I can think of a number of times I made an excuse not to ride with someone and likewise I have been blown off as well for just this reason. If the stronger rider has a goal for the ride that will suffer if a weaker rider comes along, he may beg off riding together. To me that is a lot more polite than leading your companion out by 50 yards for the whole ride and forcing him to struggle to keep up. Yes, I have experienced that too, usually from behind. But better yet would be to obviate the issue with motor-assist.
If you want to continue this in a separate thread, go ahead and open one up. I will be happy to participate. This idea is important to me.
And you are wrong. I gave you a specific case where it is important to bolster someone's performance for the ride to be enjoyable (not competitive, just enjoyable) for both riders. Maybe you are the perfect friend, but that isn't very common. If riding with a slower rider is painful for you, unless you are hoping to be nominated for sainthood, you aren't going to do it very often. I can think of a number of times I made an excuse not to ride with someone and likewise I have been blown off as well for just this reason. If the stronger rider has a goal for the ride that will suffer if a weaker rider comes along, he may beg off riding together. To me that is a lot more polite than leading your companion out by 50 yards for the whole ride and forcing him to struggle to keep up. Yes, I have experienced that too, usually from behind. But better yet would be to obviate the issue with motor-assist.
If you want to continue this in a separate thread, go ahead and open one up. I will be happy to participate. This idea is important to me.
10-15-14 | 10:40 AM
#52
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10-15-14 | 11:15 AM
#53
I'm doing it wrong.
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Shifting is determined by several data points. This includes bike speed, cadence, power output data from a power meter and heart rate. The user can set multiple modes, these include programming that helps maintain a target heart rate, cadence or power output level. Since the system is not in production, the algorithms are like to be evolving.
10-15-14 | 11:36 AM
#54
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It adds a completely different level of "stuff" on your bike that will eventually break and cost a small fortune to either fix or replace. Most likely straight out replace. Sure, it might make the immediate ride your darn bike less complicated, but eventually it will break, or need to be serviced and probably won't be something you can do in your own garage.
But what about that nice beginning rider who is riding on a nice flat bike path. The rider slows, how can the system tell the difference between:
The rider is getting tired
There is now a headwind
There are slow riders ahead
The rider is approaching that section where the sand blows over the path.
First 2 a downshift may be reasonable. For number 3 it is horrible and a slightly experienced rider may actually want to upshift in getting ready to accelerate past them when safe. (I'd tend to stay in the same gear but upshift while passing, likely before most automatic systems would.
10-15-14 | 11:59 AM
#55
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In all seriousness, probably a good topic for discussion and not limited to cycling. I watched my father go through the same situations on the golf course. It eventually led us to quit playing together after 30-40 years of sharing the game. The split came about because of his desire to stay competitive. When he started playing the up tees, then all of the trouble he couldn't reach suddenly came into play. So his scores got worse. Then he started switching between the tees according to the trouble on the hole. It was all about "keeping the box" and winning some money for him. But he didn't have the game anymore. I was treating it as a casual affair. But he didn't want that. Friction ensued. So I told him that if that was important to him that he needed to find a like minded bunch so he could still be in the hunt and get to crow about it. We went our separate ways and haven't played together since. That's been over 5 years ago.
10-15-14 | 12:00 PM
#56
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Bikes: 1984 Trek 770
I feel like certain riders in the TdF could have used something like this to maintain their power levels without resorting to checking their power meters all the time. Chris Froome, for example has an almost obsessive tendency to check his power meter. If it was all automatic, and he wanted to just cruise control through a stage--this would make it possible.
10-15-14 | 12:09 PM
#57
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Less complicated as long as nothing unanticipated by the system designers occurs.
But what about that nice beginning rider who is riding on a nice flat bike path. The rider slows, how can the system tell the difference between:
The rider is getting tired
There is now a headwind
There are slow riders ahead
The rider is approaching that section where the sand blows over the path.
First 2 a downshift may be reasonable. For number 3 it is horrible and a slightly experienced rider may actually want to upshift in getting ready to accelerate past them when safe. (I'd tend to stay in the same gear but upshift while passing, likely before most automatic systems would.
But what about that nice beginning rider who is riding on a nice flat bike path. The rider slows, how can the system tell the difference between:
The rider is getting tired
There is now a headwind
There are slow riders ahead
The rider is approaching that section where the sand blows over the path.
First 2 a downshift may be reasonable. For number 3 it is horrible and a slightly experienced rider may actually want to upshift in getting ready to accelerate past them when safe. (I'd tend to stay in the same gear but upshift while passing, likely before most automatic systems would.
10-15-14 | 01:00 PM
#59
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From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
I think many of you are not crediting the developers sufficiently. The majority of the issues you guys are imagining will very likely be resolved before you ever see the product. You also are not realizing how much of the shifting activity you are worrying about, you would be doing manually if it were not a PITA. Slowing down behind another rider should elicit a downshift if the upshift when you want to pass is super fast and right on time. You just don't do it because it's like, "Why bother?" For the auto system it won't be a bother. If the mechanism is fast and responsive, those extra shifts will be a boon, not a problem.
I do think that if the shifting response is very active, some folks may prefer a tighter cassette than otherwise. I can see the prefernce moving to compact front rings and an 11-23 11-speed cassette with single tooth shifts all the way up to the 19. Or maybe 12-26 if climbing ease is more important to you than top end speed. Those 16 and 18 tooth cogs are going to become lots more important.
I do think that if the shifting response is very active, some folks may prefer a tighter cassette than otherwise. I can see the prefernce moving to compact front rings and an 11-23 11-speed cassette with single tooth shifts all the way up to the 19. Or maybe 12-26 if climbing ease is more important to you than top end speed. Those 16 and 18 tooth cogs are going to become lots more important.
10-15-14 | 01:32 PM
#60
Portland Fred
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You must have misunderstood my post. It would not be for me. Most of the benefit I see would be on the medical/fitness side. Someone in a rehabilitative situation such as heart surgery. Or a fitness instructor setting up a plan for a weight loss patient. You could hook them up on a spin bike or rollers and have the workout automated instead of a manual process.
Some exercise bikes allow you to program workouts where it adjusts the resistance automatically as the workout progresses to achieve specific riding/training objectives while displaying what's happening on a monitor. As far as I know, the machines that do this don't use biofeedback to adjust the workout, but that seems like a logical step to take.
My guess is that drag racing would work better if it were fully automated from a performance point of view. But I can't imagine anyone wanting to watch that.
10-15-14 | 01:50 PM
#61
Portland Fred
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Slowing down behind another rider should elicit a downshift if the upshift when you want to pass is super fast and right on time. You just don't do it because it's like, "Why bother?" For the auto system it won't be a bother. If the mechanism is fast and responsive, those extra shifts will be a boon, not a problem.
With mechanical, you can choose exactly what part of the pedal stroke you shift in. I've tried a lot of stuff, and I have yet to find a system where it doesn't matter. Timing shifts with your stroke always makes things go more smoothly. I suppose an autoshift system could be developed that knows where the pedals are, but knowing exactly when the shift will occur is useful for planning your effort.
Auto shifting would be like having a book that turns its own pages based on the position of your eyes. I just don't see that as helpful. It would probably be especially fun when you're trying to rotate muscles on an extended climb and decide to alternate standing and sitting. They could put sensors that detect you changing your weight distribution, but I doubt they could make the system smarter than the human since the programming would inevitably be based on assumptions about how people ride -- and some people will deviate from that.
10-15-14 | 02:07 PM
#62
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Auto shifting would be like having a book that turns its own pages based on the position of your eyes. I just don't see that as helpful. It would probably be especially fun when you're trying to rotate muscles on an extended climb and decide to alternate standing and sitting. They could put sensors that detect you changing your weight distribution, but I doubt they could make the system smarter than the human since the programming would inevitably be based on assumptions about how people ride -- and some people will deviate from that.
10-15-14 | 02:14 PM
#63
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From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
With DT, this would be an advantage. But decent mechanical shifting is so easy/fast/precise, I can't say I've ever not shifted because I thought it was a bother.
With mechanical, you can choose exactly what part of the pedal stroke you shift in. I've tried a lot of stuff, and I have yet to find a system where it doesn't matter. Timing shifts with your stroke always makes things go more smoothly. I suppose an autoshift system could be developed that knows where the pedals are, but knowing exactly when the shift will occur is useful for planning your effort.
Auto shifting would be like having a book that turns its own pages based on the position of your eyes. I just don't see that as helpful. It would probably be especially fun when you're trying to rotate muscles on an extended climb and decide to alternate standing and sitting. They could put sensors that detect you changing your weight distribution, but I doubt they could make the system smarter than the human since the programming would inevitably be based on assumptions about how people ride -- and some people will deviate from that.
With mechanical, you can choose exactly what part of the pedal stroke you shift in. I've tried a lot of stuff, and I have yet to find a system where it doesn't matter. Timing shifts with your stroke always makes things go more smoothly. I suppose an autoshift system could be developed that knows where the pedals are, but knowing exactly when the shift will occur is useful for planning your effort.
Auto shifting would be like having a book that turns its own pages based on the position of your eyes. I just don't see that as helpful. It would probably be especially fun when you're trying to rotate muscles on an extended climb and decide to alternate standing and sitting. They could put sensors that detect you changing your weight distribution, but I doubt they could make the system smarter than the human since the programming would inevitably be based on assumptions about how people ride -- and some people will deviate from that.
I suppose I was thinking not that it was actually a bother, but the rider might subconsciously be thinking, "Why bother," which is a little bit different. "I am just going to upshift in about 10 seconds anyway. What's the point?" Not that being in the lower gear would be a problem, but it would just have to be reversed. The machine doesn't mind the repetition.
10-15-14 | 02:34 PM
#64
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I'm not a fan. The reason why this "technology" hasn't been released in parallel with the introduction of EPS/DI2 is simply because it doesn't work well and CANNOT work well outside of TT/Triathlons. If you are changing power often in a road race or even group ride, the thing could very well shift in very un-opportune times (such as when you first get out of the saddle).
The technology itself is extremely simple and not even a slight challenge to implement. I think there is a good reason why no one is doing this already, even though it's easy. Because it's never going to be as good as shifting for yourself (with exception to TT/Tris where you want to have steady and constant effort).
The technology itself is extremely simple and not even a slight challenge to implement. I think there is a good reason why no one is doing this already, even though it's easy. Because it's never going to be as good as shifting for yourself (with exception to TT/Tris where you want to have steady and constant effort).
10-15-14 | 03:25 PM
#65
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From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
In all seriousness, probably a good topic for discussion and not limited to cycling. I watched my father go through the same situations on the golf course. It eventually led us to quit playing together after 30-40 years of sharing the game. The split came about because of his desire to stay competitive. When he started playing the up tees, then all of the trouble he couldn't reach suddenly came into play. So his scores got worse. Then he started switching between the tees according to the trouble on the hole. It was all about "keeping the box" and winning some money for him. But he didn't have the game anymore. I was treating it as a casual affair. But he didn't want that. Friction ensued. So I told him that if that was important to him that he needed to find a like minded bunch so he could still be in the hunt and get to crow about it. We went our separate ways and haven't played together since. That's been over 5 years ago.
10-15-14 | 03:41 PM
#66
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In all seriousness, probably a good topic for discussion and not limited to cycling. I watched my father go through the same situations on the golf course. It eventually led us to quit playing together after 30-40 years of sharing the game. The split came about because of his desire to stay competitive. When he started playing the up tees, then all of the trouble he couldn't reach suddenly came into play. So his scores got worse. Then he started switching between the tees according to the trouble on the hole. It was all about "keeping the box" and winning some money for him. But he didn't have the game anymore. I was treating it as a casual affair. But he didn't want that. Friction ensued. So I told him that if that was important to him that he needed to find a like minded bunch so he could still be in the hunt and get to crow about it. We went our separate ways and haven't played together since. That's been over 5 years ago.
10-15-14 | 04:00 PM
#67
Portland Fred
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I personally hate cruise control except on virtually empty roads. When people use it anywhere near each other, you inevitably get situations where one person is passing another 0.1 mph faster. So the cars spend much more time closer together than they should rather than the slower person easing up a bit and the faster car picking things up so there's a clean pass and the road isn't blocked.
10-15-14 | 04:04 PM
#68
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People.
The automated shifting system offers the following options:
- Enabling and disabling of the auto shifting separately for front and back.
- Overriding the auto shifting even when it is enabled.
- Shifting "aggressivenes" setup.
- Warning light before the shift occurs.
- Separate mode when standing up.
Most of the complaints that are still being posted on the third page have already been taken care of.
The automated shifting system offers the following options:
- Enabling and disabling of the auto shifting separately for front and back.
- Overriding the auto shifting even when it is enabled.
- Shifting "aggressivenes" setup.
- Warning light before the shift occurs.
- Separate mode when standing up.
Most of the complaints that are still being posted on the third page have already been taken care of.
10-15-14 | 04:33 PM
#69
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From: location location
Bikes: MBK Super Mirage 1991, CAAD10, Yuba Mundo Lux, and a Cannondale Criterium Single Speed
I could beat my dad who is no longer here from a young age. He was funny on the golf course. Uber competitive. That's the way many Dads are with their kids. He couldn't hit the ball straight like most duffers and was always hitting hail mary shots from behind trees. I was so concerned he was going to hit himself by ricocheting off a tree I always gave him a free kick of the ball so he had a clear shot to the green. Golf can divide people like competing in anything. Enjoy your dad. You won't have him forever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1AtAQM1mNw
There's a whole series of them. Watch the tennis one last.
10-15-14 | 04:39 PM
#70
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From: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: Custom Zona c/f tandem + Scott Plasma single
Interesting . . .
Bicycles, like cars, like airplanes have evolved from mechanical devices to complex electronic gizmos.
Wright Brothers would be surprised that computers are needed to fly an F-35.
Henry Ford probably never envisioned radios, heaters, computers etc on what is being sold today.
Am not against technology. Tried Shimano brifters when they first came out for 3,000 miles . . . were problematic shifting triple chainrings.
Tested some of the first Di-2 electronic shifting . . . when it worked properly it was great. However when it quit in the middle of a hard hill climb (after being re-charged a couple days before; the warning signals that were supposedly built in never did work right) it was time to give up.
Currently we are back to triple chain rings, bar-end shifters and 9-speed cassette and HAPPY!
Have tested many prototype cycling products, some of which never saw daylight . . .
Innovations need to be tested extensively before being released for the public to buy it.
Just our input/experience.
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Bicycles, like cars, like airplanes have evolved from mechanical devices to complex electronic gizmos.
Wright Brothers would be surprised that computers are needed to fly an F-35.
Henry Ford probably never envisioned radios, heaters, computers etc on what is being sold today.
Am not against technology. Tried Shimano brifters when they first came out for 3,000 miles . . . were problematic shifting triple chainrings.
Tested some of the first Di-2 electronic shifting . . . when it worked properly it was great. However when it quit in the middle of a hard hill climb (after being re-charged a couple days before; the warning signals that were supposedly built in never did work right) it was time to give up.
Currently we are back to triple chain rings, bar-end shifters and 9-speed cassette and HAPPY!
Have tested many prototype cycling products, some of which never saw daylight . . .
Innovations need to be tested extensively before being released for the public to buy it.
Just our input/experience.
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
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