FXjohn

I don't believe you.

beatlebee 

Let's just be clear that what happens in mice does not always (and some may say often) translate to humans.

Carbonfiberboy 

True, however you must then say that the universal health benefits of both the Med diet and drinking red wine remain unexplained. Studies have disproven the resveratrol theory.

beatlebee 

Que?

Carbonfiberboy 

you don't give a referent. Resveratrol, maybe?
Resveratrol levels and all-cause mortality in older community-dwelling adults. - PubMed - NCBI
and
Red wine, antioxidants and resveratrol: Good for your heart? - Mayo Clinic

wolfchild

The health benefits of moderate wine consumption is more because of its alcohol content then resveratrol...It's been proven that moderate drinkers are healthier, live longer and have better blood lipids profile then people who never drink and those who drink too much. Beer is just as healthy as wine.

Ball Bearing

Really? How are you qualified to make this statement? I'm still waiting for your reply concerning your statements about how vegan diets are unhealthy - which contradict the position of the American Dietitians Association.

"Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets...

...It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes...."

Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets. - PubMed - NCBI

Concerning your expertise about alcohol and its purported health benefits...

"..."Our research reveals that the protective effects of light drinking that have been widely reported may be exaggerated because the claims are based on studies that have included the inappropriate use of non-drinkers, regardless of the abstinence reason as a comparator and other 'selection biases'.

"Our study found that once ex-drinkers - who may have quit due to alcohol-related health issues or abstain due to poor health in general - were removed from the pool of non-drinkers, the protective benefits of alcohol for moderate drinkers virtually disappeared and there was little to no protection provided by alcohol consumption at any level."..."

News | The University of Sydney

"...A relatively recent meta-analysis concerning the relationship between alcohol consumption, coronary heart disease and all-cause mortality[SUP]3[/SUP] identified 84 studies and estimated significant health benefits associated with light to moderate drinking. Reanalysis of these 84 studies indicated that, when duplicates and studies with serious design flaws were eliminated, only two remained and they had mixed findings.[SUP]9[/SUP] The present study would constitute a third. It is of course important to acknowledge that there are well-designed laboratory studies which support the idea that low doses of alcohol may have some benefits for the circulatory system.[SUP]10[/SUP] However, high doses of alcohol can also be damaging to heart health, for example by increasing blood pressure.[SUP]11[/SUP] The important question, therefore, is how in practice do these theoretical health benefits translate at the population level? Further, why do studies such as this one indicate alcohol is protective against heart disease regardless of consumption level? The authors’ speculation and the analysis above suggest this is due to the operation of systematic biases in uncontrolled observational studies...."

Commentary: Another serious challenge to the hypothesis that moderate drinking is good for health?

From what I have read, you appear to be simply defending your eating and drinking habits. I fully understand how you feel. No one likes the idea of giving up their sources of pleasure. My father-in-law is one of those people who boldly proclaimed that he would rather live a few years less than give up his dietary/drinking habits. He is currently in the hospital waiting for an angioplasty to insert stents after his Christmas Eve heart attack and he also has bowel cancer and glaucoma. I fail to see how being in such poor health is enjoyment.

wolfchild

All I can see in your post is confirmation bias.

Ball Bearing

I am not surprised. I was hoping you could, at least, refute the American Dietetic Association position statement.

beatlebee 

I meant that what happens to mice might not happen in humans. A well known nutritionist, Lyle McDonald, argues that it rarely translates. I can't find his original article that lays it all out, but:

Why EXACTLY are rat/mice studies bad? - BodyRecomposition Support Forums

Here is another link, very specific issue but I am not interested in searching further:

Of mice and men: the relevance of the mouse to the study of human SLE. - PubMed - NCBI

or more generally:

https://www.the-scientist.com/?articl...e-Bad-Models-/

Carbonfiberboy 

You can believe or disbelieve whatever you want. I choose to think that there might be something to it. I can't tell: is it the idea of mouse studies being done or of olive oil being good that upsets you?

beatlebee 

I am stating facts for you to ponder, nothing more.

gregf83 

Do Vegan babies have this response to Brussels Sprouts?

Carbonfiberboy 

Cut the Brussels Sprouts in half, brush with olive oil, put in a 9 X 11 pan in a 400 oven until they get dark brown, even a little black. Even better if you can buy them still on the stalk. OMG.


I was talking to a woman in the brown-bag area when I was up skiing Monday. She went fishing for the first time and brought home a whole fish. She showed it to her 8 y.o. daughter who exclaimed, "You mean we eat its flesh?"

My wife and I commercial fished in Alaska, so yeah, we eat their flesh just fine. Pigs though, pigs are really cool. A male pig can have a 20 minute orgasm and they do not like to be interrupted.

gregf83 

I hear they're good with Bacon as well

Ball Bearing

...

Ball Bearing

There it is, folks; an infant being programmed - the message here is Live to Eat rather than Eat to Live - Health be damned. Sorry, it does not make sense to me. I thoroughly enjoy eating a totally plant diet. After 43 years of excluding flesh from my diet I have no dietary regrets (except I wish I was raised a vegan from birth).

I have never ever seen a vegan try and stir things up in a meat eater thread anywhere on the net. I wonder why vegan threads are always invaded by the meat eaters. I believe that deep down everyone knows that causing suffering to our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of the taste buds is wrong. Insecurity is the only reason I can see for the need to preach about the glories of flesh eating in a vegan thread.

gregf83 

I was just trying to lighten up a thread that seemed to have lost its way. I don't think it's wrong to eat meat but I respect those who choose not to. Can't say I like Brussels sprouts though.

Serious question: what percentage of vegans don't eat meat for health vs morality reasons?

Ball Bearing

I don't really know. Self-reporting surveys are notoriously unreliable. I know of self-proclaimed vegans and vegetarians who eat chicken, fish, dairy and eggs. This is almost as bad as the 1% of women in the USA who claim that they are virgin mothers.

The often claimed observation that vegans are pale and sickly is most likely because for some very sick people being vegan is a last desperate attempt at health. These are often the ones' who say that eating vegan (probably for a couple of weeks or months) made them sick and took away their energy. The long-time vegans I know are hale and hearty.

gregf83 

I suspect those who choose to be vegans for health reasons aren't bothered if they 'cheat' and eat meat once in a while as they realize it will have minimal change to their overall diet whereas those who feel it's wrong to eat meat have a more black and white view of their lifestyle.

Ball Bearing

I originally became a vegetarian after spearing a magnificent parrot fish in the stomach on the Big Island off the Kona coast. He swam up to me, probably out of curiosity and friendliness and I foolishly recalled being told by a local what good eating they are. I was awed by his beauty and his trust and I hesitated, which meant I missed his head and watched him swim away with his guts hanging out towards a slow painful death. That did it. After a few years I became more conscious of the health benefits. The internet has certainly helped understand the nexus between diet and health.

dim

here's a link with 1000 vegan recipes:

Finding Vegan | Vegan recipe photos + links. Updated hourly. Blogger-submitted, from your favorite bloggers. Register today!
..................................................................

and here's a list of vegan blogs:

https://lzdmz.webs.com/vegan.htm

bargeon

Compromise. I'm a carnivore, but I only eat animals that are vegetarian.

DosWheelsBtr

hard to say for me it was the health reason. most vegans will state you can't commit long-term if you only do it for the health reasons. i disagree. for me the help animals get and the fighting of climate change are the outcomes of a good decision. by me wanting to be healthy i also ended up doing more overrall.

DosWheelsBtr

+1