Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…
#576
Senior Member
I'm aware, hence why I mentioned the chart had changed.. from only 2yrs ago -- the industry obviously still trying fo figure this all out. Of interest though, supposedly on my 19mm rims, I'm allowed to go to 80psi, (though 2yrs ago I would have only been allowed 78psi).
So is the 72/73 psi number bandied about all of the time -- something from ISO or from ETRTO, or somewhere else?
So is the 72/73 psi number bandied about all of the time -- something from ISO or from ETRTO, or somewhere else?
The tyre/rim combinations in the Mavic chart are the ETRTO/ISO standard, but the pressure is Mavic recommendations. Presumably NOT ETRTO/ISO, or it would say so. No mention as to why they deviate, but a safe bet is to not have tyres blow off Mavic wheels and deal with the fallout from that.
#577
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,664
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4760 Post(s)
Liked 1,542 Times
in
1,011 Posts
Read carefully ;-)
The tyre/rim combinations in the Mavic chart are the ETRTO/ISO standard, but the pressure is Mavic recommendations. Presumably NOT ETRTO/ISO, or it would say so. No mention as to why they deviate, but a safe bet is to not have tyres blow off Mavic wheels and deal with the fallout from that.
The tyre/rim combinations in the Mavic chart are the ETRTO/ISO standard, but the pressure is Mavic recommendations. Presumably NOT ETRTO/ISO, or it would say so. No mention as to why they deviate, but a safe bet is to not have tyres blow off Mavic wheels and deal with the fallout from that.
#578
Senior Member
I dont know for sure. I cant find the current ETRTO or ISO standard chart. I do agree its weird having the same max pressure for every imaginable combination, and I bet its not the case either. I just cant prove it right now.
#579
Senior Member
This is the Schwalbe special chart for tubeless tyres on hookless rims. Their recommendation for a 30mm tyre is 4.5 bar max. That is 65 psi. Also not 72 psi, but closer.
https://www.schwalbe.com/en/tubeless...e-requirement/
https://www.schwalbe.com/en/tubeless...e-requirement/
#580
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,792
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse x2, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata 3
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2034 Post(s)
Liked 1,524 Times
in
1,056 Posts
Iffy as in a tire with a nominal width of 28 mm is barely wider than the 25 mm internal width of the wheel; I would not install narrower than a 30 mm wide tire on those wheels. Yes, I also feel that hooked is safer than hookless, especially for a chubster like me.
#581
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,689
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4526 Post(s)
Liked 5,028 Times
in
3,108 Posts
I think the ETRTO standard max pressure on hookless rims is 73 psi for tyres up to 28 mm and 65 psi for 30 mm and above. But the various tyre manufacturers don’t necessarily comply with the ETRTO standard. For example Conti state a max 73 psi for all widths of their GP5000S TR. They say that they test their tyres at 110% of this max pressure on the widest rim allowed in the ETRTO rim/tyre width chart. Other tyre manufacturers use slightly different methods, so there is no real standard here.
#582
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,963
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4852 Post(s)
Liked 3,990 Times
in
2,589 Posts
Not a hooked vs hookless issue but tire types in general. Today's Itzulia Basque Country stage race, a rider slid out on a corner with pavement buckled by tree roots. Odds are what? 95% that he was riding tubeless, 5% clincher and 0% tubular? My experience is with tubular and clincher. Even using the exact same tires, clincher and tubular (Vittoria G+) I find the grip on iffy surfaces with tubular rules. I hear that sidewalls on tubeless are in general, stiffer than needed for clinchers. (And the classic tubulars I raced had sidewalls that almost weren't.) I wonder if this rider had simply been riding the old stuff perhaps Jonas Vingegaard, Primroz Roglic and Remco Evenepoelmight have avoided ugly crashes that may well affect their rides in big races later this season. That's a lot of high priced athlete to sacrifice for the glue free tubeless ride.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-champion-jonas-vingegaard-remco-evenepoel-primoz-roglic-injured-in-serious-crash-during-itzulia-basque-country/
s
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-champion-jonas-vingegaard-remco-evenepoel-primoz-roglic-injured-in-serious-crash-during-itzulia-basque-country/
s
#583
The Wheezing Geezer
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Española, NM
Posts: 1,089
Bikes: 1976 Fredo Speciale, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr., Libertas mixte
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 422 Post(s)
Liked 973 Times
in
465 Posts
I don't know about tree roots, but when I see a disc-wheel team time trialer's wheel slide out from under him for no apparent reason on a sharp corner, I figure he'd have been better off running small-flange Record hubs, laced three-cross, and tubular rims and tires. Not crashing beats aero.
#584
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 1,404
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 682 Post(s)
Liked 456 Times
in
340 Posts
Not a hooked vs hookless issue but tire types in general. Today's Itzulia Basque Country stage race, a rider slid out on a corner with pavement buckled by tree roots. Odds are what? 95% that he was riding tubeless, 5% clincher and 0% tubular? My experience is with tubular and clincher. Even using the exact same tires, clincher and tubular (Vittoria G+) I find the grip on iffy surfaces with tubular rules. I hear that sidewalls on tubeless are in general, stiffer than needed for clinchers. (And the classic tubulars I raced had sidewalls that almost weren't.) I wonder if this rider had simply been riding the old stuff perhaps Jonas Vingegaard, Primroz Roglic and Remco Evenepoelmight have avoided ugly crashes that may well affect their rides in big races later this season. That's a lot of high priced athlete to sacrifice for the glue free tubeless ride.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tou...asque-country/
s
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tou...asque-country/
s
Horror crash.
#585
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,695
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked 1,361 Times
in
694 Posts
Not a hooked vs hookless issue but tire types in general. Today's Itzulia Basque Country stage race, a rider slid out on a corner with pavement buckled by tree roots. Odds are what? 95% that he was riding tubeless, 5% clincher and 0% tubular? My experience is with tubular and clincher. Even using the exact same tires, clincher and tubular (Vittoria G+) I find the grip on iffy surfaces with tubular rules. I hear that sidewalls on tubeless are in general, stiffer than needed for clinchers. (And the classic tubulars I raced had sidewalls that almost weren't.) I wonder if this rider had simply been riding the old stuff perhaps Jonas Vingegaard, Primroz Roglic and Remco Evenepoelmight have avoided ugly crashes that may well affect their rides in big races later this season. That's a lot of high priced athlete to sacrifice for the glue free tubeless ride.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tou...asque-country/
s
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tou...asque-country/
s
#586
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,519
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2562 Post(s)
Liked 3,059 Times
in
1,744 Posts
Not a hooked vs hookless issue but tire types in general. Today's Itzulia Basque Country stage race, a rider slid out on a corner with pavement buckled by tree roots. Odds are what? 95% that he was riding tubeless, 5% clincher and 0% tubular? My experience is with tubular and clincher. Even using the exact same tires, clincher and tubular (Vittoria G+) I find the grip on iffy surfaces with tubular rules. I hear that sidewalls on tubeless are in general, stiffer than needed for clinchers. (And the classic tubulars I raced had sidewalls that almost weren't.) I wonder if this rider had simply been riding the old stuff perhaps Jonas Vingegaard, Primroz Roglic and Remco Evenepoel might have avoided ugly crashes that may well affect their rides in big races later this season. That's a lot of high priced athlete to sacrifice for the glue free tubeless ride.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tou...asque-country/
s
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tou...asque-country/
s
#587
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,963
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4852 Post(s)
Liked 3,990 Times
in
2,589 Posts
I'm not saying anything clincher vs tubeless re: handling. I've heard some clinchers have gone to stiffer casings to be tubleless ready which strikes me as a step backwards handling-wise if true but I haven't seen this first hand. I do know that I feel more secure on poor surfaces riding tubulars than the identical clincher. And better tubulars with thinner, more flexible casings handle better.
Blaming the cash? Huh? I'm just pointing out that this crash cost bike racing a lot. (If tubulars would have made a difference, the cost of this incident would cover an awful lot of expensive tires and mechanics gluing time.)
Disc brakes? GP-4 rims? This thread is about tires, specifically tubeless tires that may have caused or at least not prevented crashes in the pro ranks.
That's a real stretch. Current premium tubeless tire sidewalls are as supple as regular clinchers, so that is not an issue, and I have never heard of a real grip difference between tubular and clincher tires. Now blaming the cash as well as the potential injury of these top athletes is over the top.
Or it was the merciless performance of disc brakes. That said, I'll take discs over GP-4 hard-anodized rims. That slick brake track was awful in the rain. The late Jobst Brandt despised hard anodizing of rims for that and other reasons.
#588
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 1,404
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 682 Post(s)
Liked 456 Times
in
340 Posts
But how did we go from hookless to tubeless being to blame? Clearly we don’t know what caused this one but there’s been no suggestion until now that tubeless are an issue.
#589
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,557
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3256 Post(s)
Liked 2,567 Times
in
1,529 Posts
I'm not saying anything clincher vs tubeless re: handling. I've heard some clinchers have gone to stiffer casings to be tubleless ready which strikes me as a step backwards handling-wise if true but I haven't seen this first hand. I do know that I feel more secure on poor surfaces riding tubulars than the identical clincher. And better tubulars with thinner, more flexible casings handle better.
Blaming the cash? Huh? I'm just pointing out that this crash cost bike racing a lot. (If tubulars would have made a difference, the cost of this incident would cover an awful lot of expensive tires and mechanics gluing time.)
Disc brakes? GP-4 rims? This thread is about tires, specifically tubeless tires that may have caused or at least not prevented crashes in the pro ranks.
Blaming the cash? Huh? I'm just pointing out that this crash cost bike racing a lot. (If tubulars would have made a difference, the cost of this incident would cover an awful lot of expensive tires and mechanics gluing time.)
Disc brakes? GP-4 rims? This thread is about tires, specifically tubeless tires that may have caused or at least not prevented crashes in the pro ranks.
Last edited by seypat; 04-05-24 at 06:03 AM.
#590
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,689
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4526 Post(s)
Liked 5,028 Times
in
3,108 Posts
Yeah it’s nonsense. My 30 mm tubeless GP5000S TR tyres on 22 mm internal rims at 65 psi are about as plush and grippy as it gets for high performance road tyres. These same tyres are the fastest ever recorded at Paris Roubaix and that is as challenging as it gets for uneven road surfaces.
Likes For PeteHski:
#591
Senior Member
Traction is going to be better with 28-32mm tubeless tires that are used at far lower air pressures than old school narrow tubulars. I don't know what aspect of handling you're talking about that's contingent on supple side walls. I modern tubeless with 38 psi lower pressure should be far more supple.
#592
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,689
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4526 Post(s)
Liked 5,028 Times
in
3,108 Posts
Traction is going to be better with 28-32mm tubeless tires that are used at far lower air pressures than old school narrow tubulars. I don't know what aspect of handling you're talking about that's contingent on supple side walls. I modern tubeless with 38 psi lower pressure should be far more supple.
#593
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,700
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11044 Post(s)
Liked 7,595 Times
in
4,235 Posts
I don't know about tree roots, but when I see a disc-wheel team time trialer's wheel slide out from under him for no apparent reason on a sharp corner, I figure he'd have been better off running small-flange Record hubs, laced three-cross, and tubular rims and tires. Not crashing beats aero.
Likes For mstateglfr:
#594
-------
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Tejas
Posts: 12,802
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9660 Post(s)
Liked 6,366 Times
in
3,506 Posts
#595
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,557
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3256 Post(s)
Liked 2,567 Times
in
1,529 Posts
Also, if you're talking about TTs, Pelissier hubs were the way to go, not Record.
https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.a...7a9f1&Enum=110
Last edited by seypat; 04-06-24 at 08:42 AM.
#596
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,557
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3256 Post(s)
Liked 2,567 Times
in
1,529 Posts
Speaking of French, cycling, tires, safety and such........
https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...y-union-boss-1
https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...y-union-boss-1
#597
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,700
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11044 Post(s)
Liked 7,595 Times
in
4,235 Posts
I must not understand what 'sliding out' means because to me it seems really easy for someone to slide out in a sharp turn, regardless of hub design or spoke lacing and regardless of tire type, if the tire deflates or if the tire loses contact with the ground.
The fact that a tubular tire will stay attached to the rim doesn't mean a wheel won't slide out on a sharp corner if the tire deflates or if the rider hits a bump at a bad angle during the turn.
A shallow box rim won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
The lacing pattern of a wheel won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
I was responding to Fredo76 whose post I find to be of little value and erroneous because he attaches benefits to something that doesn't inherently contain those claimed benefits.
If someone slides out on a sharp turn using a carbon rim and disc brake, there is 0 reason to think they wouldn't have slid out on that same sharp turn using a box rim with tubular tire and traditional lacing to a low flange hub.
Like really, what does the lacing pattern have to do with anything? Why would a low flange hub stop a wheel from sliding out in a sharp turn better than the hub flange height of a modern hub?...and speaking of, why is Fredo assuming the modern hubs aren't also low flange?
I think his post was bad and contained erroneous information which misdirects the issue and frames the type of equipment he likes in a positive light. So I questioned his comment.
But since you two have responded, I am open to underswtand hat I am missing here. Why would a low flange box rim 3 cross laced tubular wheel not slide out in a sharp turn? And if that can be answered, then this can also be answered- why do carbon rim tubeless wheels with disc brakes slide out in that same sharp turn?
#598
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,557
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3256 Post(s)
Liked 2,567 Times
in
1,529 Posts
I must not understand what 'sliding out' means because to me it seems really easy for someone to slide out in a sharp turn, regardless of hub design or spoke lacing and regardless of tire type, if the tire deflates or if the tire loses contact with the ground.
The fact that a tubular tire will stay attached to the rim doesn't mean a wheel won't slide out on a sharp corner if the tire deflates or if the rider hits a bump at a bad angle during the turn.
A shallow box rim won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
The lacing pattern of a wheel won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
I was responding to Fredo76 whose post I find to be of little value and erroneous because he attaches benefits to something that doesn't inherently contain those claimed benefits.
If someone slides out on a sharp turn using a carbon rim and disc brake, there is 0 reason to think they wouldn't have slid out on that same sharp turn using a box rim with tubular tire and traditional lacing to a low flange hub.
Like really, what does the lacing pattern have to do with anything? Why would a low flange hub stop a wheel from sliding out in a sharp turn better than the hub flange height of a modern hub?...and speaking of, why is Fredo assuming the modern hubs aren't also low flange?
I think his post was bad and contained erroneous information which misdirects the issue and frames the type of equipment he likes in a positive light. So I questioned his comment.
But since you two have responded, I am open to underswtand hat I am missing here. Why would a low flange box rim 3 cross laced tubular wheel not slide out in a sharp turn? And if that can be answered, then this can also be answered- why do carbon rim tubeless wheels with disc brakes slide out in that same sharp turn?
The fact that a tubular tire will stay attached to the rim doesn't mean a wheel won't slide out on a sharp corner if the tire deflates or if the rider hits a bump at a bad angle during the turn.
A shallow box rim won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
The lacing pattern of a wheel won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
I was responding to Fredo76 whose post I find to be of little value and erroneous because he attaches benefits to something that doesn't inherently contain those claimed benefits.
If someone slides out on a sharp turn using a carbon rim and disc brake, there is 0 reason to think they wouldn't have slid out on that same sharp turn using a box rim with tubular tire and traditional lacing to a low flange hub.
Like really, what does the lacing pattern have to do with anything? Why would a low flange hub stop a wheel from sliding out in a sharp turn better than the hub flange height of a modern hub?...and speaking of, why is Fredo assuming the modern hubs aren't also low flange?
I think his post was bad and contained erroneous information which misdirects the issue and frames the type of equipment he likes in a positive light. So I questioned his comment.
But since you two have responded, I am open to underswtand hat I am missing here. Why would a low flange box rim 3 cross laced tubular wheel not slide out in a sharp turn? And if that can be answered, then this can also be answered- why do carbon rim tubeless wheels with disc brakes slide out in that same sharp turn?
That being said, I do have 3 sets of wheels with large flange hubs. They do have a better ride than small flange. I wish they were still around.
#599
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,700
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11044 Post(s)
Liked 7,595 Times
in
4,235 Posts
#600
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,557
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3256 Post(s)
Liked 2,567 Times
in
1,529 Posts
Speaking of French, cycling, tires, safety and such........ Unfortunately, this is no laughing matter. I think we have gotten to that point.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...y-union-boss-1
https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...y-union-boss-1
Last edited by seypat; 04-06-24 at 12:51 PM.