Give me the facts, just the facts...
#76
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I am not seeing where they say that all bikes will be damaged. They do say that all of their bikes can be damaged, and they go on to mention some ways to install a kickstand while minimizing the chance to damage your frame.
They also do not say that any damage to the chainstays is beyond repair. The do say that it is possible to damage your chainstays beyond repair. I imagine that if you put your mind to it, there is very little you cannot damage beyond repair. They do mention the pitfalls of welding this section of the bike, but then when you're trying to bring a frame back from the dead, you really have nothing to lose. But even if what Surly meant (but did not, as far as I can tell, say), "There is no type of chainstay damage that can be repaired by welding." That still wouldn't contradict the idea that sometimes a welder can repair a steel frame, because, at least on my Trucker, there are many, many parts of the frame that are not chainstays. Maybe the newer Truckers have switched to a "chainstay-only" design.
Also, saying that sometimes a welder can restore a bike to useability is far from saying that any bike can be restored by any welder. That's just silly. Saying that "Sometimes a welder can repair a steel bike." does not contradict "Sometimes the chainstays can be crushed beyond compare."
Often if you cut yourself, you can clean the wound and your body will heal. This in no way guarantees you'll survive decapitation.
They also do not say that any damage to the chainstays is beyond repair. The do say that it is possible to damage your chainstays beyond repair. I imagine that if you put your mind to it, there is very little you cannot damage beyond repair. They do mention the pitfalls of welding this section of the bike, but then when you're trying to bring a frame back from the dead, you really have nothing to lose. But even if what Surly meant (but did not, as far as I can tell, say), "There is no type of chainstay damage that can be repaired by welding." That still wouldn't contradict the idea that sometimes a welder can repair a steel frame, because, at least on my Trucker, there are many, many parts of the frame that are not chainstays. Maybe the newer Truckers have switched to a "chainstay-only" design.
Also, saying that sometimes a welder can restore a bike to useability is far from saying that any bike can be restored by any welder. That's just silly. Saying that "Sometimes a welder can repair a steel bike." does not contradict "Sometimes the chainstays can be crushed beyond compare."
Often if you cut yourself, you can clean the wound and your body will heal. This in no way guarantees you'll survive decapitation.
Secondly. Let's read the quote from them shall we -- " Most people contact us after they had just destroyed their frame" I don't know about you, but the meaning of destroy is..
Destroy = to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
Very clear to me.
#77
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I asked for it because I expected that reality would not match the nonsense people where saying.
Your expectation that a company is claiming that one can fix a frame to 100% in the middle of nowhere is crazy.
This is more craziness! Steel can be more or less springy related to the thickness of the tubes.
The hole you are digging just gets deeper and deeper.
Your expectation that a company is claiming that one can fix a frame to 100% in the middle of nowhere is crazy.
This is more craziness! Steel can be more or less springy related to the thickness of the tubes.
The hole you are digging just gets deeper and deeper.
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It's easier to bend steel back and it appears that the ability to weld (or braze) steel is much, much more common.
There are also a fair number of places (in the US) that will repair steel frames. It doesn't seem that there are anywhere near as many which will repair AL frames.
If these things are indeed the case, then steel is more practical for repairing that AL is (I didn't say one could not repair AL).
Of course, there aren't many AL touring bikes either. (There are lots of AL MTB/hybrids, though.)
There are also a fair number of places (in the US) that will repair steel frames. It doesn't seem that there are anywhere near as many which will repair AL frames.
If these things are indeed the case, then steel is more practical for repairing that AL is (I didn't say one could not repair AL).
Of course, there aren't many AL touring bikes either. (There are lots of AL MTB/hybrids, though.)
As for the number of places that might do a permanent fix, I doubt that there are many who would attempt to repair a production touring bike like the LHT. It would just cost more than a new frame. These guys say that "
Unfortunately, most shop[s] will tell you, it is generally not economical to repair a damaged bike frame, and try to sell you a new bike. This is true for the low end made in china bikes. But your here because you have a bike that is no longer made, or you just plain like the ride and feel.
There is a point of no return when in fact its more economically feasible to purchase a new bike. With that in mind steel frame[s] would fit into this category.
There is a point of no return when in fact its more economically feasible to purchase a new bike. With that in mind steel frame[s] would fit into this category.
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#79
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OK, I picked out the bit that actually applies to the topic in this thread.
I didn't get the impression that the original question was about manufacturers replacing frames ... I thought the original question was about you, yourself, being able to fix the frame to a point where you can ride it, when you are out in the middle of nowhere.
Here is the original question ...
So ... can chainstays be welded enough so that a person could cycle out of the middle of nowhere?
I didn't get the impression that the original question was about manufacturers replacing frames ... I thought the original question was about you, yourself, being able to fix the frame to a point where you can ride it, when you are out in the middle of nowhere.
Here is the original question ...
So ... can chainstays be welded enough so that a person could cycle out of the middle of nowhere?
They claimed, "Most of their customers contacted them after they have just destroyed their frame". This quote is from Surly not from me. So the English word "destroy" means annihilate, injury beyond repair or rescue etc.. Seemed pretty clear that many complaints came from people who did install a kickstand without asking. And it seemed pretty clear "destroyed" means well beyond repair, or at least that's what my impression was after reading the article.
Lastly, the original poster was asking for facts. I laid out the facts. My personal opinion about those people who were upset was that, they were sold with the impression that the frame could be easily fixed. Then they destroyed the frame and they all get upset that it couldn't be fixed.
Again, the point I'm trying to make is that, things can be fixed, but I like to point out fairness with facts. But to say that steel is a guarantee and others is not is just a personal opinion based on personal success on the repair. And that is all.
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As for the number of places that might do a permanent fix, I doubt that there are many who would attempt to repair a production touring bike like the LHT. It would just cost more than a new frame. These guys say that "
I said that it doesn't make sense to repair a cheap frame unless it was the only option available to you! This is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said (but here are you arguing that people are thinking it).
Keep in mind that we are talking about emergency repairs in the middle of nowhere!
One advantage of the LHT is that it is cheap and easy to replace. Heck, it's cheap enough that it wouldn't be out of the question to have another frame on hand (if you were worried about breaking the frame).
The fact that there are many places that fix steel frames (and not many, it seems, that will fix AL) is some indication that it's more practical to fix steel than AL frames.
And it still isn't anywhere as likely to get a Ti or AL frame repaired in the middle of nowhere (which is what we are talking about here).
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-11-12 at 06:07 PM.
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Lastly, the original poster was asking for facts. I laid out the facts. My personal opinion about those people who were upset was that, they were sold with the impression that the frame could be easily fixed. Then they destroyed the frame and they all get upset that it couldn't be fixed.
No one is saying "steel is a guarantee"!
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-11-12 at 05:57 PM.
#82
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The original question was, is it safe to tour without a steel bike because steel is the only material that's easy to fix. My answer was, it makes no difference. Someone here asked for proof which company made claims that steel bikes are repaired easier than other metals? I provided the proof. I also provided counter-proof that on the kickstand article.
The second is that traveling in foreign lands with anything but a steel frame is asking for trouble. Afterall, no matter how remote the location, you will find a villager with a full machine shop in his mud hut and you will be able to have a broken frame welded. Once again, has this ever happened to you? I'm not interested in speculation, or remote theoretical possibilities. I want the facts, just the facts. Where were you when your frame broke, and how did you get it mended?
Lastly, the original poster was asking for facts. I laid out the facts. My personal opinion about those people who were upset was that, they were sold with the impression that the frame could be easily fixed. Then they destroyed the frame and they all get upset that it couldn't be fixed.
Again, the point I'm trying to make is that, things can be fixed, but I like to point out fairness with facts. But to say that steel is a guarantee and others is not is just a personal opinion based on personal success on the repair. And that is all.
Again, the point I'm trying to make is that, things can be fixed, but I like to point out fairness with facts. But to say that steel is a guarantee and others is not is just a personal opinion based on personal success on the repair. And that is all.
There are no guarantees, and no one has offered any. The OP asked for examples. Examples were given. Now you want to say that actual examples represent opinions, rather than facts. If some has successfully finished a ride with a bike that was fixed by welding, that's an actual data point, not an opinion.
It seems like you're saying: Steel frames can be damaged beyond repair, therefore steel bikes have no repair advantage in the field.
That does not follow.
That said, the OP's own original statement is also an absolute that doesn't ring true. Most people neither have their frames repaired mid trip, nor damage their frames beyond repair. So saying that touring on anything other than steel is foolish is an exaggeration. Touring on steel marginally improves your odds that you bike could be repaired in the event of frame damage. It's just one data point to consider. If you ride single speed, your derailer won't break. If you use solid rubber tires, you won't run out of tubes. If you walk, there is no bike to break. Clearly the only safe way to bike tour in foreign lands is on foot.
The OP started with one extreme statement about steel being the only way to go, and now we've worked our way around to another extreme in which steel has no repair advantage whatsoever. Neither ring true for me, but then I don't see why either extreme should be the case.
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There are two common beliefs in touring that get repeated so often, they have become dogma.
The first is that a dollar bill can be used if necessary as a tire boot. Have you actually tried this? I don't want you to tell me what you've heard. I want to know from real experience. Dollar bill=tire boot ? Rubbish.
The second is that traveling in foreign lands with anything but a steel frame is asking for trouble. Afterall, no matter how remote the location, you will find a villager with a full machine shop in his mud hut and you will be able to have a broken frame welded. Once again, has this ever happened to you? I'm not interested in speculation, or remote theoretical possibilities. I want the facts, just the facts. Where were you when your frame broke, and how did you get it mended?
The first is that a dollar bill can be used if necessary as a tire boot. Have you actually tried this? I don't want you to tell me what you've heard. I want to know from real experience. Dollar bill=tire boot ? Rubbish.
The second is that traveling in foreign lands with anything but a steel frame is asking for trouble. Afterall, no matter how remote the location, you will find a villager with a full machine shop in his mud hut and you will be able to have a broken frame welded. Once again, has this ever happened to you? I'm not interested in speculation, or remote theoretical possibilities. I want the facts, just the facts. Where were you when your frame broke, and how did you get it mended?
I'm not sure where the OP thought this thread would go, but when I first read his comments above, I had the idea that we'd get a whole bunch of posts about creative roadside repairs, not a bunch of Surly talk.
So bring on the tales of fixing bicycles with an old coat hanger and some baling twine found on the side of the road!
(Unless the OP would rather the discussion not go that direction)
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#85
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Actually, further to Machka's comment (and no we haven't discussed this), there are other breakages that can be as difficult to repair as a broken frame in the middle of nowhere.
I've had the broken inside race of a hub. Had to walk to the nearest town some miles for that one.
Broken cranks aren't unknown. If you've got no drive, you've got to walk. Even with a broken frame, it's possible to walk, too.
Broken sidewalls on a rim might be a significant one -- you might not be able to walk the bike at all in that case.
A broken, as opposed to a bent, fork might also be another tour-killer.
And a broken seat post or seat clamp might also be a challenge.
I've had the broken inside race of a hub. Had to walk to the nearest town some miles for that one.
Broken cranks aren't unknown. If you've got no drive, you've got to walk. Even with a broken frame, it's possible to walk, too.
Broken sidewalls on a rim might be a significant one -- you might not be able to walk the bike at all in that case.
A broken, as opposed to a bent, fork might also be another tour-killer.
And a broken seat post or seat clamp might also be a challenge.
Last edited by Rowan; 09-12-12 at 04:05 AM.
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Actually, further to Machka's comment (and no we haven't discussed this), there are other breakages that can be as difficult to repair as a broken frame in the middle of nowhere.
I've had the broken inside race of a hub. Had to walk to the nearest town some miles for that one.
Broken cranks aren't unknown. If you've got no drive, you've got to walk. Even with a broken frame, it's possible to walk, too.
Broken sidewalls on a rim might be a significant one -- you might not be able to walk the bike at all in that case.
A broken, as opposed to a bent, fork might also be another tour-killer.
And a broken seat post or seat clamp might also be a challenge.
I've had the broken inside race of a hub. Had to walk to the nearest town some miles for that one.
Broken cranks aren't unknown. If you've got no drive, you've got to walk. Even with a broken frame, it's possible to walk, too.
Broken sidewalls on a rim might be a significant one -- you might not be able to walk the bike at all in that case.
A broken, as opposed to a bent, fork might also be another tour-killer.
And a broken seat post or seat clamp might also be a challenge.
#87
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Sheesh. It's easy to image scenarios where a frame can't be repaired. No one is talking about that.
Sheesh. No one is making this argument!
I said that it doesn't make sense to repair a cheap frame unless it was the only option available to you! This is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said (but here are you arguing that people are thinking it).
Keep in mind that we are talking about emergency repairs in the middle of nowhere!
One advantage of the LHT is that it is cheap and easy to replace. Heck, it's cheap enough that it wouldn't be out of the question to have another frame on hand (if you were worried about breaking the frame).
The fact that there are many places that fix steel frames (and not many, it seems, that will fix AL) is some indication that it's more practical to fix steel than AL frames.
They don't say why except beyond the cost of the frame.
And it still isn't anywhere as likely to get a Ti or AL frame repaired in the middle of nowhere (which is what we are talking about here).
Sheesh. No one is making this argument!
I said that it doesn't make sense to repair a cheap frame unless it was the only option available to you! This is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said (but here are you arguing that people are thinking it).
Keep in mind that we are talking about emergency repairs in the middle of nowhere!
One advantage of the LHT is that it is cheap and easy to replace. Heck, it's cheap enough that it wouldn't be out of the question to have another frame on hand (if you were worried about breaking the frame).
The fact that there are many places that fix steel frames (and not many, it seems, that will fix AL) is some indication that it's more practical to fix steel than AL frames.
They don't say why except beyond the cost of the frame.
And it still isn't anywhere as likely to get a Ti or AL frame repaired in the middle of nowhere (which is what we are talking about here).
We really aren't that far apart in our views. If I were traveling in outer Mongolia, I'd take a steel bike because aluminum might not have gotten there yet. But aluminum and welding equipment is nearly as ubiquitous as steel welding equipment in most of the rest of the world. There are just too many cars that have aluminum parts to be otherwise. Aluminum bike frames are probably easier to weld given their thickness.
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Stuart Black
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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#88
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That was not quite the question.
Actually there are two questions, one asked, and one implied: has anyone had a steel bike repaired mid trip, and does this mean that it's foolish to tour on anything other than steel in places where it might be difficult to repair another material?
You seem to be unable to read Surly's literature as anything but absolute statements, but then add your qualifiers that don't appear anywhere. Many people, including the people at Surly, believe that steel welding is more common than other means of frame repair, and that therefore if your frame is damaged in a remote area, your odds of fixing it are better with steel. Nothing in that implies that all types of damage can be fixed or can be fixed "easily." Your facts are nothing more than bizarre extrapolations and leaps of illogic.
There are no guarantees, and no one has offered any. The OP asked for examples. Examples were given. Now you want to say that actual examples represent opinions, rather than facts. If some has successfully finished a ride with a bike that was fixed by welding, that's an actual data point, not an opinion.
It seems like you're saying: Steel frames can be damaged beyond repair, therefore steel bikes have no repair advantage in the field.
That does not follow.
That said, the OP's own original statement is also an absolute that doesn't ring true. Most people neither have their frames repaired mid trip, nor damage their frames beyond repair. So saying that touring on anything other than steel is foolish is an exaggeration. Touring on steel marginally improves your odds that you bike could be repaired in the event of frame damage. It's just one data point to consider. If you ride single speed, your derailer won't break. If you use solid rubber tires, you won't run out of tubes. If you walk, there is no bike to break. Clearly the only safe way to bike tour in foreign lands is on foot.
The OP started with one extreme statement about steel being the only way to go, and now we've worked our way around to another extreme in which steel has no repair advantage whatsoever. Neither ring true for me, but then I don't see why either extreme should be the case.
Actually there are two questions, one asked, and one implied: has anyone had a steel bike repaired mid trip, and does this mean that it's foolish to tour on anything other than steel in places where it might be difficult to repair another material?
You seem to be unable to read Surly's literature as anything but absolute statements, but then add your qualifiers that don't appear anywhere. Many people, including the people at Surly, believe that steel welding is more common than other means of frame repair, and that therefore if your frame is damaged in a remote area, your odds of fixing it are better with steel. Nothing in that implies that all types of damage can be fixed or can be fixed "easily." Your facts are nothing more than bizarre extrapolations and leaps of illogic.
There are no guarantees, and no one has offered any. The OP asked for examples. Examples were given. Now you want to say that actual examples represent opinions, rather than facts. If some has successfully finished a ride with a bike that was fixed by welding, that's an actual data point, not an opinion.
It seems like you're saying: Steel frames can be damaged beyond repair, therefore steel bikes have no repair advantage in the field.
That does not follow.
That said, the OP's own original statement is also an absolute that doesn't ring true. Most people neither have their frames repaired mid trip, nor damage their frames beyond repair. So saying that touring on anything other than steel is foolish is an exaggeration. Touring on steel marginally improves your odds that you bike could be repaired in the event of frame damage. It's just one data point to consider. If you ride single speed, your derailer won't break. If you use solid rubber tires, you won't run out of tubes. If you walk, there is no bike to break. Clearly the only safe way to bike tour in foreign lands is on foot.
The OP started with one extreme statement about steel being the only way to go, and now we've worked our way around to another extreme in which steel has no repair advantage whatsoever. Neither ring true for me, but then I don't see why either extreme should be the case.
For a reply, you sure wrote long!
The reason why I said it needs to be road worthy was due to 1 of the many incidents we experienced with the cycle tourists we sponsored. One group were Janick Lemiuex and Pierre Bouchard of Pacific Ring Of Fire. They climbed volcanoes with bikes for 10 years plus the 10 years prior. In terms of mileage, I would venture they would have MORE mileage, experience and expertise compared to most members on this forum in terms of repairs on the field. Yes, their Kona Caldera did break due to overloading with 80lbs of load. Yes they did the repairs on the steel frame by the locals welding it. Yes it did get them going, but Janick crashed severely because her frame broke again at the welds, plus it took out her rear wheel and caused her to go into the ditch. I remembered the photos of her bloody helmet. Suffice to say, for safety sakes, we would mail them through Kona any new frames necessary for safety. You've got only 1 life to live. Why chance it? They later went to tour with a pair of Devinci MTB which happpened to be made of aluminum! Same deal! As I said before again and again, you can fix a steel frame easier, but do not paint this 1 experience with a broad brush stroke that any field repaired frame is safe to ride forever. It may, or it may not.
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Surly is not in any hole. They appear to sell lots of LHTs. Indicating that putting kick-stands on them is a bad idea benefits them!
No, you haven't provided any facts! You merely indicate that you expect that frames are able to be fixed to 100% in the middle of nowhere! That's an opinion and a rather odd one as well!
No one is saying "steel is a guarantee"!
No, you haven't provided any facts! You merely indicate that you expect that frames are able to be fixed to 100% in the middle of nowhere! That's an opinion and a rather odd one as well!
No one is saying "steel is a guarantee"!
Same thing with a steel bike repaired on the field. No one is guaranteeing that it will be safe to ride forever. But a new steel frame is guaranteed not to break as long as it is not defective and is used within its design specs. Or whoever is selling the frame is going to face a mountain full of lawsuits. This is the US of A you know, and we are a land of litigations if we are not careful of what we represent.
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But a new steel frame is guaranteed not to break as long as it is not defective and is used within its design specs. Or whoever is selling the frame is going to face a mountain full of lawsuits. This is the US of A you know, and we are a land of litigations if we are not careful of what we represent.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-12-12 at 12:35 PM.
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No, I mentioned it as an indication of the relative practicality of repairing steel. Very few places seem to repair AL bicycles. Many repair steel. A few repair Ti.
Which is what everybody is talking about. It's obvious that that is what people are talking about because it makes no sense to spend lots of money/time to repair a cheap frame (like the LHT).
I'm not sure if this is true. I think also that AL is a bit more fussy to repair. It's also possible that any place that can repair AL is also easy to ship to.
We really aren't that far apart in our views. If I were traveling in outer Mongolia, I'd take a steel bike because aluminum might not have gotten there yet. But aluminum and welding equipment is nearly as ubiquitous as steel welding equipment in most of the rest of the world. There are just too many cars that have aluminum parts to be otherwise. Aluminum bike frames are probably easier to weld given their thickness.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-12-12 at 12:44 PM.
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A repair in the field is not necessarily meant to provide a permanent solution.
When I put a granola bar wrapper in my tire to boot it, it was not with the intention that I would ride with the wrapper in place until the whole tire eventually disintegrates ... by the same token, when someone does a frame repair, or any sort of makeshift repair, out in the middle of nowhere, it is not necessarily with the intention that they'll ride that way forever.
Here's one ... I had a rack bolt shear with about a month to go on my 3-month tour of Australia, and it sheared when my cycling partner and I were out in some small town in the middle of nowhere. With no bolts of the correct size readily available, I ran a ziptie through the holes and ziptied my rack to my frame. It stayed like that till the end of the tour.
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#93
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"But aluminum and welding equipment is nearly as ubiquitous as steel welding equipment in most of the rest of the world. There are just too many cars that have aluminum parts to be otherwise. Aluminum bike frames are probably easier to weld given their thickness."
That might be true at some level, like you can weld aluminum with AC stick or mig, and you ca weld it with oxy. There are a lot of those machines around. Oxy alumunum flux is a very specialty item, maybe there are some coated rods, don't know. The zinc repair rods are not up to it. Overall, not going to happen unless you bring it yourself. They are definetly not going to have the filler either.
MIG and Stick, mostly people weld sheet metal for body repair or do non-full structural structural stuff. The chance any of this is compatible with your Al, is pretty remote. With Mig you need to change the gas, never really knew why since with TIG the same gas works for both. Overall, not happening.
With tig the Al machines are probably more common than the steel only machines, but again, it is more than a machine. You need the comsumables, the right electrode material for the machine type, the right filler, and you need someone who knows how to weld a metal that shows no colour change when it pools.
Then once you are done with all that, you still need to heat treat the whole frame. Not happening. If it is 7075, I don't think you need to heat treat it. but most frames aren't.
Now what could you get away with were the frame is tacked to some angle, and splint with some wire, and slathered with some epoxy, where the welds are just an initial reference, don't know. But maybe.
Again, I think any frame can be repaired with carbon tow, and epoxy, and the amount required would not be much, pretty much leveling the playing field, though it might take a day or so, so it might not be a fast enough fix for many scenarios.
That might be true at some level, like you can weld aluminum with AC stick or mig, and you ca weld it with oxy. There are a lot of those machines around. Oxy alumunum flux is a very specialty item, maybe there are some coated rods, don't know. The zinc repair rods are not up to it. Overall, not going to happen unless you bring it yourself. They are definetly not going to have the filler either.
MIG and Stick, mostly people weld sheet metal for body repair or do non-full structural structural stuff. The chance any of this is compatible with your Al, is pretty remote. With Mig you need to change the gas, never really knew why since with TIG the same gas works for both. Overall, not happening.
With tig the Al machines are probably more common than the steel only machines, but again, it is more than a machine. You need the comsumables, the right electrode material for the machine type, the right filler, and you need someone who knows how to weld a metal that shows no colour change when it pools.
Then once you are done with all that, you still need to heat treat the whole frame. Not happening. If it is 7075, I don't think you need to heat treat it. but most frames aren't.
Now what could you get away with were the frame is tacked to some angle, and splint with some wire, and slathered with some epoxy, where the welds are just an initial reference, don't know. But maybe.
Again, I think any frame can be repaired with carbon tow, and epoxy, and the amount required would not be much, pretty much leveling the playing field, though it might take a day or so, so it might not be a fast enough fix for many scenarios.
#94
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Then once you are done with all that, you still need to heat treat the whole frame. Not happening. If it is 7075, I don't think you need to heat treat it. but most frames aren't.
Now what could you get away with were the frame is tacked to some angle, and splint with some wire, and slathered with some epoxy, where the welds are just an initial reference, don't know. But maybe.
I've had some experience with broken frames and having them repaired. It's where I found out how thin and difficult steel frames are to weld...difficult enough to tax the skills of the common shade tree mechanic, maybe even as difficult as aluminum. The welds were at the bottom bracket bridge on the chainstay (both sides) on a 1984 steel Miyata Ridge Runner mountain bike. The steel wasn't the thinnest steel and was probably a similar thickness to what you'd find on an LHT. The welds didn't last and eventually cracked again.
On the other hand, I also had an aluminum frame repaired. The same guy fixed both frames and never made any comment about the aluminum one being difficult to weld. This break was at the seat post/ top tube junction...don't use seatposts like the Titec Hellbent downhill post...the repair was simple and straight forward. It also wasn't heat treated afterwards and was still going strong after 6 years when I sold the bike. I wouldn't have expected the same result if the break would have been on the chainstays like the steel bike.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#95
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Not on a different page, I am also taking about repairs in the field. You are putting up one field repair that turned out well against the fact that welding aluminum is a far more demanding on the gear.
Purpose of my FAQ was to point out how to deal with the issues around how thin steel is. Tell the person how thick the steel is, usually .035 is close enough, compare it to sheet metal welds, tell them a peak amp range, which is about 35 amps, unless they have pulse, etc... With a few points on a card you can stop bad things from happening.
Anyway, the most pervasive repair tech out there is brazing, and it will make repairing thin tubing a doddle. You can braze alumiunum, but 100% of the people you will meet do not know how.
It is non-trivial that some aluminum alloys need heat treating, it certainly rises to the level of the OP myth investigation as to whether there is a difference. A weld that needs to be heat treated but won't be is certainly a downside compared to steel that is not required to be heat treated to meet design strength. There is a difference between returning a frame to out of box specs in every respect, and welds that are crap.
Purpose of my FAQ was to point out how to deal with the issues around how thin steel is. Tell the person how thick the steel is, usually .035 is close enough, compare it to sheet metal welds, tell them a peak amp range, which is about 35 amps, unless they have pulse, etc... With a few points on a card you can stop bad things from happening.
Anyway, the most pervasive repair tech out there is brazing, and it will make repairing thin tubing a doddle. You can braze alumiunum, but 100% of the people you will meet do not know how.
It is non-trivial that some aluminum alloys need heat treating, it certainly rises to the level of the OP myth investigation as to whether there is a difference. A weld that needs to be heat treated but won't be is certainly a downside compared to steel that is not required to be heat treated to meet design strength. There is a difference between returning a frame to out of box specs in every respect, and welds that are crap.
#96
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Here is my piece on Roadside stick welding:
[h=2]Roadside Stick Welding[/h]
[h=2]Roadside Stick Welding[/h]
With the Potholed thread about a frame that nearly folded in a crash into a pothole, and the subsequent repair, I thought it might be useful to cover the subject of stick welding bikes. Contrary to popular belief, it is perfectly feasible to make a bike with stick welding, though no manufacturer would try it, from what I have heard so far. There are things you can do that will allow you to control the process a little better, and to evaluate the results.
Stick welding is the cheapest, and in many regards the most generally useful welding type for a rural environment. In NA where people are rich and might engage in large personal projects like trailer building MIG is a major convenience. Stick is the cheapest and most versatile method out there, if less suited to bike tubing scale, so it should be the method you first find in the third world, or in rural areas.
If you find a Stick welder, and need a repair, one thing you can do is provide your own electrodes. I carry 1/16" Easystrike electrodes. To quote the package:
"...is specialy designed to produce small welds on thin steel sheet or tubing. The exclusive igniter tip, guarantees an instant strike and non-stick start every time. Typical uses include... Bicycle frames... In most cases ES can be used to replace brazing, TIG welding or torch welding, on delicate or hard-to-weld surfaces."
While it is a kluge of sorts, it does work pretty much as advertised. A non-stick, and easy starting welding electrode is ideal because problems in those areas will guarantee major impurities are included in the weld, with the weld being laid over a sooty impure surface. It will also cause the welder to use more amps than the ES would require with greater risk of blow-through.
ES electrodes are slightly more expensive than regular brands, and probably not sold one at a time. There may be other similar products, but even a general duty mild steel electrode is better than what most welder may have. Lincoln 1/16" electrodes are cheaper to buy.
As you can see in the attached picture, I cut the electrodes in half, remove the flux to create a new contact point. I pack only the electrodes that have the factory end on them, where the flux goes all the way to the end. The other half electrode is useable but without expert prep, may be a lot less viable in roadside hands. It is critical that the flux jacket is solid on the electrode, and if ES electrodes have a fault, it is a slightly fragile flux jacket. So inspect them well. The half length electrode is much easier to weld with, it is more precise and stiffer. A thin electrode is hard to control if it starts to stick and will be wobbly from starting strikes alone. So the half length electrodes are a much better device. Most repairs could be done with a couple of trodes, but a group could carry up to 10 of the shorties to have plenty of stock for practice or attrition.
Electrodes work best if pre-heated to a point where they are unpleasant to touch. Just leaving them on some clean but hot sunsoaked surface would help. A solar oven would be ideal. They strike and weld better when hot.
The surfaces to be welded should be scraped free of paint, and sanded clean, then cleaned with a cloth soaked in alcohol. Once dry they are ready to weld. Just the area to be welded and any contact surfaces need to be clean. Be aware some papers have oils on them, and some solvents like acetone have oil residue in them. So alcohol and SC paper are good.
Stick welding leaves a lot of waste in it's path, yet the welds are fine. You will see soot on the outer perimeter, you will see dots of splattered metal, and you will find the whole bead is covered with a vitreous material that protects the weld pool from oxidization. At first the vitrious material may look like the welding bead, but the actual weld is underneath. Gentle chipping will remove the flux, and the weld can't be evaluated without removing the flux. What is more, every time the electrode is struck anew, it must be over a surface that has been cleaned of all flux and soot, or other residue. The splatter is actual metal deposited on the surface and will do no harm, though it is probably somewhat oxidized. However splater may make it hard to clean a surface.
A full circular weld, joining a tube will take a minimum of 8 strikes, generally, and will probably require 6 cleaning cycles. This is certainly one reason not to make bikes with stick welding. The same 8 strikes would be completely clean with TIG.
Generally repairs will consist of 2 separate classes of welds. There will be joints like those in a new bike. These are the most demanding because the weld is going to be loaded under tension where it is weakest. In evaluating such welds, you need to consider how cleanly they were laid down. If you are in the hands of a headstrong welder, who doesn't want to hear a non-welder tell them what to do, or there is a language barrier, you are probably going to see a lot of starts and stops without sufficient cleaning. That will reduce the strength of any welds significantly. You want to see beads that are smooth, continuous, neither sunk below the surface nor perched on it like drops of water on a waxed car. Ugly welds are not relevant. Extra piles of weld are not a big problem, sometime a side trip will allow one to recapture a wandering electrode path , or cool the seam a little, or recut into beads or tacks one is crossing.
The other category is where something is welded over a tube in a brace. These will generally see less tensile loading. They are a bit like nails in a wooden house frame, loaded mainly in shear. Some tacks, with good fusion in some areas of the pile may well be fine. It is quite possible that welds will be laid that joint two surfaces not in close proximity. While the mantra in bike making is to have perfect joints prior to welding, more generally there will be a gap in welded joints that is linked up allowing better penetration and less trouble with heat distortion. So expect to see that being done, it is standard correct practice. The main challenge with bike repairs is that the welder will not be familiar with welding 4130, etc...; will not be familiar with welding tubes; will not have welded such thin materials. A person not familiar with tube welding should physically trace the path of the weld a few times with no power to get a feel for the body positions.
Educate yourself, by examining welded structures you come across. Look at cheap steel bikes of reasonable quality, nothing fancy, and come to recognize the quality of welds that will get by, however ugly they may be. Look for bad welds on Chinese import stuff on department store exercise equipment, or hardware items like engine lifts.
Don't expect too much. There is no reason to believe that even a talented welder can hit the mark on his first try without doing some damage to the bike. Welding is a good way to get a bike fixed in the field where getting back on the road is the main consideration. It is likely to destroy the frame.
Stick welding is the cheapest, and in many regards the most generally useful welding type for a rural environment. In NA where people are rich and might engage in large personal projects like trailer building MIG is a major convenience. Stick is the cheapest and most versatile method out there, if less suited to bike tubing scale, so it should be the method you first find in the third world, or in rural areas.
If you find a Stick welder, and need a repair, one thing you can do is provide your own electrodes. I carry 1/16" Easystrike electrodes. To quote the package:
"...is specialy designed to produce small welds on thin steel sheet or tubing. The exclusive igniter tip, guarantees an instant strike and non-stick start every time. Typical uses include... Bicycle frames... In most cases ES can be used to replace brazing, TIG welding or torch welding, on delicate or hard-to-weld surfaces."
While it is a kluge of sorts, it does work pretty much as advertised. A non-stick, and easy starting welding electrode is ideal because problems in those areas will guarantee major impurities are included in the weld, with the weld being laid over a sooty impure surface. It will also cause the welder to use more amps than the ES would require with greater risk of blow-through.
ES electrodes are slightly more expensive than regular brands, and probably not sold one at a time. There may be other similar products, but even a general duty mild steel electrode is better than what most welder may have. Lincoln 1/16" electrodes are cheaper to buy.
As you can see in the attached picture, I cut the electrodes in half, remove the flux to create a new contact point. I pack only the electrodes that have the factory end on them, where the flux goes all the way to the end. The other half electrode is useable but without expert prep, may be a lot less viable in roadside hands. It is critical that the flux jacket is solid on the electrode, and if ES electrodes have a fault, it is a slightly fragile flux jacket. So inspect them well. The half length electrode is much easier to weld with, it is more precise and stiffer. A thin electrode is hard to control if it starts to stick and will be wobbly from starting strikes alone. So the half length electrodes are a much better device. Most repairs could be done with a couple of trodes, but a group could carry up to 10 of the shorties to have plenty of stock for practice or attrition.
Electrodes work best if pre-heated to a point where they are unpleasant to touch. Just leaving them on some clean but hot sunsoaked surface would help. A solar oven would be ideal. They strike and weld better when hot.
The surfaces to be welded should be scraped free of paint, and sanded clean, then cleaned with a cloth soaked in alcohol. Once dry they are ready to weld. Just the area to be welded and any contact surfaces need to be clean. Be aware some papers have oils on them, and some solvents like acetone have oil residue in them. So alcohol and SC paper are good.
Stick welding leaves a lot of waste in it's path, yet the welds are fine. You will see soot on the outer perimeter, you will see dots of splattered metal, and you will find the whole bead is covered with a vitreous material that protects the weld pool from oxidization. At first the vitrious material may look like the welding bead, but the actual weld is underneath. Gentle chipping will remove the flux, and the weld can't be evaluated without removing the flux. What is more, every time the electrode is struck anew, it must be over a surface that has been cleaned of all flux and soot, or other residue. The splatter is actual metal deposited on the surface and will do no harm, though it is probably somewhat oxidized. However splater may make it hard to clean a surface.
A full circular weld, joining a tube will take a minimum of 8 strikes, generally, and will probably require 6 cleaning cycles. This is certainly one reason not to make bikes with stick welding. The same 8 strikes would be completely clean with TIG.
Generally repairs will consist of 2 separate classes of welds. There will be joints like those in a new bike. These are the most demanding because the weld is going to be loaded under tension where it is weakest. In evaluating such welds, you need to consider how cleanly they were laid down. If you are in the hands of a headstrong welder, who doesn't want to hear a non-welder tell them what to do, or there is a language barrier, you are probably going to see a lot of starts and stops without sufficient cleaning. That will reduce the strength of any welds significantly. You want to see beads that are smooth, continuous, neither sunk below the surface nor perched on it like drops of water on a waxed car. Ugly welds are not relevant. Extra piles of weld are not a big problem, sometime a side trip will allow one to recapture a wandering electrode path , or cool the seam a little, or recut into beads or tacks one is crossing.
The other category is where something is welded over a tube in a brace. These will generally see less tensile loading. They are a bit like nails in a wooden house frame, loaded mainly in shear. Some tacks, with good fusion in some areas of the pile may well be fine. It is quite possible that welds will be laid that joint two surfaces not in close proximity. While the mantra in bike making is to have perfect joints prior to welding, more generally there will be a gap in welded joints that is linked up allowing better penetration and less trouble with heat distortion. So expect to see that being done, it is standard correct practice. The main challenge with bike repairs is that the welder will not be familiar with welding 4130, etc...; will not be familiar with welding tubes; will not have welded such thin materials. A person not familiar with tube welding should physically trace the path of the weld a few times with no power to get a feel for the body positions.
Educate yourself, by examining welded structures you come across. Look at cheap steel bikes of reasonable quality, nothing fancy, and come to recognize the quality of welds that will get by, however ugly they may be. Look for bad welds on Chinese import stuff on department store exercise equipment, or hardware items like engine lifts.
Don't expect too much. There is no reason to believe that even a talented welder can hit the mark on his first try without doing some damage to the bike. Welding is a good way to get a bike fixed in the field where getting back on the road is the main consideration. It is likely to destroy the frame.
#97
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Again, you are missing the point. Field repair. Temporary. Enough to get by. In other words, not a permanent fix.
He's saying that the heat-treating is required which makes "field repairs" impractical. Certainly, one can disagree that the heat-treating isn't necessary.
If one has the experience and material, it's probably not more difficult. That doesn't mean it's as easy to find some one to do it in the middle of nowhere.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-13-12 at 06:51 AM.
#98
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Being able to easily fix a steel frame in Podukaville is as much of a myth as the myth that aluminum shatters into a million pieces when it breaks.
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 09-13-12 at 08:20 AM.
#99
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Not on a different page, I am also taking about repairs in the field. You are putting up one field repair that turned out well against the fact that welding aluminum is a far more demanding on the gear.
Purpose of my FAQ was to point out how to deal with the issues around how thin steel is. Tell the person how thick the steel is, usually .035 is close enough, compare it to sheet metal welds, tell them a peak amp range, which is about 35 amps, unless they have pulse, etc... With a few points on a card you can stop bad things from happening.
Anyway, the most pervasive repair tech out there is brazing, and it will make repairing thin tubing a doddle. You can braze alumiunum, but 100% of the people you will meet do not know how.
It is non-trivial that some aluminum alloys need heat treating, it certainly rises to the level of the OP myth investigation as to whether there is a difference. A weld that needs to be heat treated but won't be is certainly a downside compared to steel that is not required to be heat treated to meet design strength. There is a difference between returning a frame to out of box specs in every respect, and welds that are crap.
Purpose of my FAQ was to point out how to deal with the issues around how thin steel is. Tell the person how thick the steel is, usually .035 is close enough, compare it to sheet metal welds, tell them a peak amp range, which is about 35 amps, unless they have pulse, etc... With a few points on a card you can stop bad things from happening.
Anyway, the most pervasive repair tech out there is brazing, and it will make repairing thin tubing a doddle. You can braze alumiunum, but 100% of the people you will meet do not know how.
It is non-trivial that some aluminum alloys need heat treating, it certainly rises to the level of the OP myth investigation as to whether there is a difference. A weld that needs to be heat treated but won't be is certainly a downside compared to steel that is not required to be heat treated to meet design strength. There is a difference between returning a frame to out of box specs in every respect, and welds that are crap.
Don't expect too much. There is no reason to believe that even a talented welder can hit the mark on his first try without doing some damage to the bike. Welding is a good way to get a bike fixed in the field where getting back on the road is the main consideration. It is likely to destroy the frame.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#100
Senior Member
That guy did get an extremely sketchy repair... and finished his trip on the bike he started with. So I don't know what point that supports. I guess what we need are examples of people who have had aluminum frames mended en route and successfully finished their trips.