Cycling Ethics...
03-19-15, 06:42 PM
#152
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03-19-15, 06:42 PM
#153
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03-19-15, 07:28 PM
#155
commu*ist spy
is this ethical?**NSFW**
https://vimeo.com/16032105
https://vimeo.com/16032105
Last edited by no1mad; 03-19-15 at 07:33 PM.
03-19-15, 08:24 PM
#156
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My wife (USA and college swimming) ditto.
Do you have a copy of such a thing in HS? I don't recall (just I don't recall) the minor had to agree to anything in HS soccer.
They are not the same.
They are not tested the same.
Last edited by Doge; 03-19-15 at 08:35 PM.
03-19-15, 08:45 PM
#157
**** that
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is this ethical?**NSFW**
https://vimeo.com/16032105
https://vimeo.com/16032105
03-19-15, 08:55 PM
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How many say rat on your teammate?
Or rat on an allegation against your teammate.
Or rat on an allegation against your teammate.
Last edited by Doge; 03-19-15 at 09:00 PM.
03-19-15, 09:09 PM
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03-19-15, 10:00 PM
#163
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i personally go UCI legal all the time as i race at least one event that requires it...and i like to be adapted to that position. however, i see people show up to races i do all the time with UCI-illegal bikes. they have an advantage over mine, but that's ok. it's not immoral or illegal....or even unethical.
i think the UCI regs for amateurs are pretty dumb. also, while they are improving a bit w/r/t TT bikes, some body types are unfairly penalized (IMO).
03-19-15, 10:13 PM
#164
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Doping is addressed, as is sexual misconduct etc. as all of those are and should be reported and I don't have any issue with the wording. With doping, sexual misconduct we throw in reporting of allegations of things like tobacco use and overuse of alcohol is the issue.
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
03-20-15, 06:41 AM
#167
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Doping is addressed, as is sexual misconduct etc. as all of those are and should be reported and I don't have any issue with the wording. With doping, sexual misconduct we throw in reporting of allegations of things like tobacco use and overuse of alcohol is the issue.
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
In general I think you have good intentions as you question USAC and their rules. Where I think you go astray is your insistence to test and define every possible edge case of every single rule, and use this forum as your bully pulpit. It's not creating good discussion. It is making you out to be a guy who flaunts authority and then screams when their interpretation of the rule or lack of strict enforcement is displayed. There is no instant replay in cycling (other than for scoring by officials) but there is a protest process and an appeal process. You would be better off using the official channels and updating the forum on how that goes. Otherwise you come off as "that guy". You don't want to be "that guy".
03-20-15, 07:02 AM
#168
out walking the earth
if one wanted to maintain anit-rat cred would they rather a kid report the drunken coach who's on the road trip with the kids or maintain that (staten island) moral high ground and keep lips zipped? It's like a koan.
I feel like I've fallen into the B roll of mob wives.
I feel like I've fallen into the B roll of mob wives.
03-20-15, 07:04 AM
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03-20-15, 08:47 AM
#172
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Where I think you go astray is your insistence to test and define every possible edge case of every single rule, and use this forum as your bully pulpit. It's not creating good discussion. It is making you out to be a guy who flaunts authority and then screams when their interpretation of the rule or lack of strict enforcement is displayed.
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
It's obvious that it's not really possible to precisely codify the proper ethical response to every possible situation. You are presenting this simple fact as though it is big and important and imperils the entire enterprise. But by doing so, you're misunderstanding - seemingly willfully, since you keep returning to the same well - the purpose of having a code of conduct. The code of conduct is statement that the organization makes that ethics matter and that there is a desire to create a culture that values ethics over cronyism. Hence the clause where not reporting witnessed violations is itself a violation of the code of conduct. The content of the code tells us more about what the organization values. In the case of USAC, there's a hell of a lot in there about the protection and safety of juniors. That seems only right, especially in an organization with at least one infamous case in its history of a person in a high position doping junior riders. Overall, the USAC code of conduct isn't even all that strict - it does not, as some organizations would, forbid coaches from consuming alcohol while on USAC business or in front of their riders.
You've hit upon the fact that no code of conduct removes your responsibility to think carefully, in some cases, about what the right thing to do is. Good for you, but that's 101-level stuff. Yet, on that same elementary level, you seem to have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of "ratting out" a friend. Hoo boy is that troubling. "Don't rat" is an essential element of cultures that allow unethical behavior and abuse to flourish behind closed doors. It's one of the sacred principles of omerta in the peloton, the Mob, abusive fraternities. Charming company to keep, really.
Last edited by grolby; 03-20-15 at 01:45 PM.
03-20-15, 09:18 AM
#173
out walking the earth
interestingly enough I'm presently involved in a committee to establish a code of ethics for my foundation's teacher training community. some of the issues that come up are cultural interpretations and norms (we have a world wide community) and how they relate to established moral precepts. For instance, not using intoxicants to heedlessness is at times interpreted to mean don't get drunk and others it shouldn't pass your lips. Would one be breaking a precept if they have an occasional glass of wine? And what of the precept not to take life? If one eats meat are they breaking the precept? The Buddha himself wasn't a vegetarian, and in fact a schism formed during his time when his cousin advocated for a strict vegetarian community. The important issue is that a moral code such as these don't undermine the purpose of a community, it's an inquiry in support of it. So that what transpires in relation to might be fair and wholesome.
03-20-15, 09:21 AM
#174
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Doping is addressed, as is sexual misconduct etc. as all of those are and should be reported and I don't have any issue with the wording. With doping, sexual misconduct we throw in reporting of allegations of things like tobacco use and overuse of alcohol is the issue.
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
tl:dr yes.
03-20-15, 09:24 AM
#175
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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All of these examples range from not necessarily correct to absolutely not correct. The code of conduct does NOT obligate the reporting of hearsay. The words are pretty clear: "witness to or party to." If a teammate tells me that he/she heard some coach was drunk at the hotel, or that so-and-so has said they're taking steroids or something, I am not violating the code of conduct if I do not report this. I may have some moral obligation to encourage the person telling me to go to relevant authorities. Or I may not. See, various factors such as my knowledge of the people involved, the alleged misconduct itself and my proximity to the situation lend themselves to consideration of what the proper action might be. This is what any human being must do in the course of their day-to-day life anyway.
It's obvious that it's not really possible to precisely codify the proper ethical response to every possible situation. You are presenting this simple fact as though it is big and important and imperils the entire enterprise. But by doing so, you're misunderstanding - seemingly willfully, since you keep returning to the same well - the purpose of having a code of conduct. The code of conduct is statement that the organization makes that ethics matter and that there is a desire to create a culture that values ethics over cronyism. Hence the clause where reporting witnessed violations is itself a violation of the code of conduct. The content of the code tells us more about what the organization values. In the case of USAC, there's a hell of a lot in there about the protection and safety of juniors. That seems only right, especially in an organization with at least one infamous case in its history of a person in a high position doping junior riders. Overall, the USAC code of conduct isn't even all that strict - it does not, as some organizations would, forbid coaches from consuming alcohol while on USAC business or in front of their riders.
You've hit upon the fact that no code of conduct removes your responsibility to think carefully, in some cases, about what the right thing to do is. Good for you, but that's 101-level stuff. Yet, on that same elementary level, you seem to have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of "ratting out" a friend. Hoo boy is that troubling. "Don't rat" is an essential element of cultures that allow unethical behavior and abuse to flourish behind closed doors. It's one of the sacred principles of omerta in the peloton, the Mob, abusive fraternities. Charming company to keep, really.
It's obvious that it's not really possible to precisely codify the proper ethical response to every possible situation. You are presenting this simple fact as though it is big and important and imperils the entire enterprise. But by doing so, you're misunderstanding - seemingly willfully, since you keep returning to the same well - the purpose of having a code of conduct. The code of conduct is statement that the organization makes that ethics matter and that there is a desire to create a culture that values ethics over cronyism. Hence the clause where reporting witnessed violations is itself a violation of the code of conduct. The content of the code tells us more about what the organization values. In the case of USAC, there's a hell of a lot in there about the protection and safety of juniors. That seems only right, especially in an organization with at least one infamous case in its history of a person in a high position doping junior riders. Overall, the USAC code of conduct isn't even all that strict - it does not, as some organizations would, forbid coaches from consuming alcohol while on USAC business or in front of their riders.
You've hit upon the fact that no code of conduct removes your responsibility to think carefully, in some cases, about what the right thing to do is. Good for you, but that's 101-level stuff. Yet, on that same elementary level, you seem to have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of "ratting out" a friend. Hoo boy is that troubling. "Don't rat" is an essential element of cultures that allow unethical behavior and abuse to flourish behind closed doors. It's one of the sacred principles of omerta in the peloton, the Mob, abusive fraternities. Charming company to keep, really.