Kopsis

Incorrect. Aluminum is actually three times more flexible than steel. You've likely been misinformed by flawed discussions of "fatigue limits". For both aluminum and steel, the greater the amount of cyclical stress, the fewer the number of cycles it can endure before the metal fractures. With steel, there's a point where that curve flattens out and the number of cycles it can survive at that stress level is "effectively" unlimited. Aluminum doesn't have the such a point so even at very low stress levels, it will fatigue after a realistically achievable number of cycles. But that number can still be VERY large for the small stress values that a well designed alloy frame (even a flexy one) would see.

They were bonded, but they were not flexing at the lugs. The flex was in the frame tubing (which is why a steel frame with identical lugs and tubing sizes had dramatically less flex).

rydabent

IMO I think with all the lawyers we have these days the frames on these non bike shop bikes are made plenty strong. They are primarily sold to kids and people that want a bike to ride near home. None of these buyers are wight weenies so the tubing is thick and strong.

Wilfred Laurier

Thanks for that. Sometimes the myths are so oft repeated that they almost become facts

flatlander_48

I think it is also easier to weld thicker tubes. You have more material to absorb and dissipate the heat. It's also less likely to burn through and there's probably a wider range of temperatures to work with. With thin materials you have to control the energy that you're putting into the work very closely.

Doug5150

Warning: opinions ahead....

There is three main problems with department-store bicycles.
1) the frames usually don't come in a range of sizes, and usually the only size is for an early-teenager. If you are of a shorter stature than maybe you can get lucky--otherwise, you are doomed to failure. Riding comfort on an upright bicycle is difficult to achieve even under perfect standards--and you have no hope if the frame is too small. It aint gonna work right; it's going to make the riding pain much worse than normal. "Just raising the seat and handlebars" isn't the same thing.
2) if the bicycle is suspended at all, the suspension wears out rather quickly and squeaks and bounces, and usually there is no easy way to obtain the correct replacement parts. There are cheap generic bicycle shocks on ebay but finding one that fits & works properly can be a challenge.
3) the general functioning is often poor. Flexy brakes, poorly-functioning shifters, low-quality unshielded bearings. You can fix all this stuff, but it costs money--and it's really cheaper to just get a better bike to begin with.

The name-brands means nothing.
Department store bikes are all built crummy; they are designed for shoppers mainly buying on price.

Fun fact: with most bicycle brands, the lowest-priced bike model that bicycle shops sell is a higher-quality than the most-expensive bicycle that department stores are allowed to sell from that same brand-name.

Wilfred Laurier

Everything you said I agree with except for two details:

In my experience, the 'one size fits all' frames of adult dept. store bikes are usually around an 18 inch frame, which is generally good for someone 5'7" to 5'11" or so. However, many of the most common bikes you will see are made in 'youth' and 'adult' models, and the only way to tell the difference is to look at them side-by-side, or check the wheel size written on the tire (usually 26" for adults and 24" for youth)


and:
I don't know this to be untrue, but I would guess it does not hold up in many instances (at least with regards to frame quality) because it could potentially require the design and manufacturer of an extra frame model solely to ensure that department store customers get lower quality. If you are talking about component quality, then I suspect your statement is true, especially with brands such as Schwinn and Raleigh who have both X-mart and LBS lines of bikes.

gpsblake

Agree. Plus what I keep pointing out, go into any LBS and you'll see a long list of so-called perfect bicycles getting repaired and fixed. In fact, fixing and repairing those LBS bikes is how they stay in business, they don't make much actually selling the bike itself.

Wilfred Laurier

Actually, the service departments of many shops are not the cash cows than many think. And much of the service on bikes that a LBS sells is generally free for some period after the sale, so no income at all for lots of the repairs.

I think the reasons more LBS bikes get worked on are (1) many of the bikes actually get ridden, while many X-Mart bikes see so little use there is never a need to repair or maintain, (2) the people who paid big $$$ at the LBS expect something close to proper function while XMart customers may never actually know what a proper functioning bike feels like to ride (and therefore think riding is frustrating and no fun - see #1 ), and (3) many LBS bikes last for years or decades of regular use when properly maintained while box store bikes become close to unserviceable after a season or two of regular use and are discarded or replaced.

Kopsis

I'd suggest a #4 - someone who thinks $199 is a reasonable price for a bicycle is going to be extremely hesitant to pay what it costs to get LBS service and repairs. A $50 tune up is 25% of the cost of the entire bike. A $100 repair (and the lack of serviceability of many of the cheap components probably makes this an optimistic cost) is half the cost of the bike. Faced with the reality of what a properly functioning bike costs, many will conclude that bikes are junk and/or shops are a rip-off and permanently park the bike next to the unused treadmill, elliptical, and free-weights.

gpsblake

I disagree. The one shop I go to charges 50 bucks an hour for labor... And from what I understand, that's pretty cheap... The actual person doing the work?? A 17 year old part-time high school being paid minimum wage with no benefits.

Ever been to a third world country like China???? None of them ride LBS quality bikes and they ride theirs day in, day out, decades at a time, never see a bike shop. The chicken plant in my town, dozens of bikes get ridden to work every day, again none of them an LBS bike....

And yes, many people throw down good money on an LBS bike, then it sits in the garage for years... Craigslist is proof of this...

The point is, you can ride a department store bike, 1,000s of miles a year... Which is what I do... And you know, when I get bored or even the worst case scenario, the bike gets stolen or crashed, only a small amount to buy a fresh one. I've ridden department store Schwinn's from South Carolina to Texas, fully packed. The worse problem I encounter with Walmart bikes?? The pedals break easily, which is a $10 repair for an indestructible set of pedals from Western Auto.

Sure, if you want to ride in a group or for speed, a Walmart bike won't cut it (although I hear wonderful reports about the Denali).. they are heavy and you will get snobbed by the fashion nazis if you show up in a walmart bike to do a group ride.

I've never had a frame break, heck I've never had a CHAIN break on a Walmart bike. Sure I have to adjust the bike, adjust the brakes from time to time, replace the tires etc...

Cycling is what you make of it... If you are afraid to get your hands dirty and such, then yea, go for an LBS bike and pay them the yearly tax to tune it up and repair it for you.

fietsbob

No, The Shop rate is the Overhead to run a Bike shop.. the Labor, Wages of the guy doing the work, is a small fraction of that .

even now the Min Wage is only a Buck an hour less ..

Brand names are a Commodity that is sold . and the old company just shut down , or the subcontractor changes to a Cheaper One.



If You get a wally world bike always have the sales receipt with you, [paper in good shape] if it craps Out have them replace it with a New One

Motolegs

"Only a small amount to buy a fresh one."

I like to gaze upon and ride machines of worth. Price be darned.

Bought this here Motobecane Grand Jubilee for $50 at the thrift store. Paid close to $1000 for the Trek road bike that is a great escape. Both are high quality rides that will withstand the test of time. Well, the Motobecane already has..

High and low end of the scale, they beat the s### that is coming out of Wal Mart.

wahoonc

The mechanics at my LBS are well trained and make a good bit more than minimum wage. You obviously have never had to run a business before...



And almost NONE of those bikes are anywhere approaching fully functional, they are usually ridden at a speed just slightly above a walking pace in a single gear, the brakes are seldom functional.

Ditto WM bikes, and the sellers on Craigs List think the WM bike is worth 95% of what they paid new for it, thrift stores aren't far behind.

SOME bikes from WM MAY be a good value, most aren't. I know, I have a whole shed full of them that were given to me, most will be stripped down for scrap.

Aaron

nymtber

I had one of the first Mongoose bikes Walmart sold in the late 90's. A-50R I think (I wish I still had the frame!) I upgraded it heavily with REAL bike parts (full LX drivetrain) wheels, fork, etc. Beat the hell out of it, it never gave up. Then I failed to properly tighten the headset once, and the headtube developed a crack.

I'd buy that bike on craigslist if I could find another. Fit me so well and I loved the shape of the frame. Was not too bad for weight, either.

Cheaper bikes? I dunno...

tbo

Interesting reading in the CPSC information. Here is the only reference on how the bike as a whole unit must perform.
So WM or anyone else (including an LBS) is completely in the clear to sell a bike that completely falls apart at 4.1 miles or after 501 feet of the cleated course.

The cleated course is a bunch of 1" x 1" lumber (eased on the leading and trailing edges to 1/2" at 45 degree angle) spaced 6 feet apart. That'll jar your fillings loose, but it's only for 500 feet total.

The only thing the CPSC seems to care about is reflectors. For that, the have very detailed specs, even listing viewing angles and nanometers. The spec for the reflective strip on a tire is 9 times longer than for the tire itself. A tire has one spec - don't blow off the rim at 110% of stated max pressure. The reflective strip has three or four tests, including the specifications on the brushes used on the abrasion tests.

They don't care if your bike disintegrates. They only care that you don't present an obstacle to vehicular traffic when it does.

Stucky

Yeah! Make the ****ermint force them to make higher quality bikes, so that Joe Sixpack will have to pay $450 instead of $99 for that bike that'll get ridden twice in the next year on smooth roads; the driveway; or grass. (The market apparently demands cheap crappy bikes, so the box stores are filling that demand. Lets screw that up with even more legislation! We can't leave consumers free to choose what quality they wish to purchase and pay for!)

Hiel Sheldon!

tbo

My problem is that the regulations they do have are useless and provide no protection to anyone, except possibly motorists. It's a charade. The fact that these regs exist make a normal consumer believe that it is a decent bicycle because it passes. But that is truly not the case. The loose regs exists so that real ones won't get written. That's dishonest. If you want no regs, that's fine. I can live with that.

Yes, you can have a $99 bicycle. I have no problem with that. Just don't believe that because it passes some gov't regs it is safe or roadworthy.

BTW, fixies with no chainguards fail the regs. For some reason, they are big on chainguards for single front and rear sprocket bikes. Couldn't care less about the derailleur bikes. Not sure what that's all about. If chainguards are important, then they are important for all bikes. If not, they must not be that important after all.

Stucky

Well-said! Kind of like the "Using a state-licensed car repair shop will guarantee you get honest competent service".....

Great point. But don't give them any ideas, or in addition to yellow safety stickers and dork dishes, we'll have to pay for and then remove chain guards on our road bikes next! Hey, but just think: If some maniacal 12 year-old buys a BMX to jump off the roof with, at least his pants won't get caught in the chain!

wphamilton

Works for me. But really "properly functioning" doesn't cost much on the bikes that use standard if low quality parts and you follow a no-bike-shop policy for it.

Wilfred Laurier

Chainguards for SS and FG bikes but not for deailleur bikes makes perfect sense. Put your fingers between the chain and top of the chainring of a derailleur bike and turn the cranks, then do the same thing with a fixie and report back. I know I might have to wait a while because you will be typing with one hand.

Retro Grouch 

Here's another data point for you to think about:

In the early 70's Mrs. Grouch and I had a lot of kids and not much money. A friend gave us a SchwinnTwinn single speed tandem bike that had been left out in the rain. Looking for a set of wheels to put onto it, the very first person I talked to had a bunch of parts taken off of a 5-speed SchwinnTwinn. He sold me everything for $30.00 which, at the time, was all the money that I had. I spread the rear triangle, made it work, and Mrs. Grouch and I were on the road and having fun together.

If you don't know, a SchwinnTwinn from that era was a carbon steel bike. In other words, similar to a department store bike frame. After building it up, Mrs. Grouch and I rode that bike for around 7 years. We rode it a lot because it was the best that we could afford and bicycling together was one of the few things that we could afford to do. On one overnight ride, Susan Notreangelo of RAAM fame, looked us up at the overnight stop to congratulate us for riding such a heavy bike on the hilly course. Never had any kind of a frame issue by the way.

That bike turned out to be a life style changer for us. Had it not been for that crummy old tandem I doubt I'd be posting here today so you might want to think twice the next time you are tempted to scoff at somebody riding a department store quality bike. If they are on the road whether for daily transportation or just having fun, they deserve a degree of respect.

wahoonc

Schwinn was by no means a department store bike until after they went bankrupt. They were a quality (heavy quality) built bike. I have some current WM stuff where the welding jobs look like they were done by someone with zero welding experience, and they just went a head and painted over the splatter and holes anyway. IMHO the current quality of "department" store bikes continues to decline. I have owned my fair share of Huffy, Western Flyer and Ross bikes over the years. A Huffy from the 1980's is a much better quality bike than what is sold in it's place today. Many people buy brand names they recognize, not realizing that many if not most of those names have been sold to the highest bidder. Very few brands exist anymore that actually produce what they sell. They contract out the production and in many cases the assembly to the lowest bidder, you get what you pay for in most cases.

Aaron

Deontologist

Meh, I don't think so. Look at all the recalls of NEXT bikes ... this is a department store brand bike.

Next (bicycle company) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Granted, dept. stores do sell A LOT of bikes so these numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. Something such as percentage of bikes recalled vs total bikes made would be more interesting.

Johnny Mullet

Department store bike frames are usually indestructable especially the older steel USA built bikes. I got a 95 Huffy with many hard miles and I ride it hard and have no fear riding this bike anywhere.............



I also have a rare older Reflex MTB that has carbon fiber tubes and I always got that slight thing in my brain that worries about any issues with the "plastic" or the "glue".......