Rowan

Who's liable for the court costs if the idiot is hurt or killed while using a private bit of land without consent? The owner is likely to face years of crap.

alan s 

JoeyBike

Agreed, the public trail lends itself to a lot more potential for the trail users trespassing on adjoining property. This is the main issue here. Case in point, the Natchez Trace Parkway is 450 miles long MOTORWAY with bicycle touring encouraged. The NTP people realized and understood the challenges of cycling vs. driving and erected some "secret" and free stealth camps usually in the proximity of a public toilet (rest stop). All at least have running water, none are fancy. These campsites only show up on the NTP cycling map and a few other publications. The stealth sites are spaced at reasonable distances so a bike tourist could cycle the entire route for free. This approach makes sense and other trails have done the same. The Steamboat Trace on the Missouri River north of the Katy Trail has at least one such public camping spot at the edge of a small town.

I believe the KATY is remiss in accommodating long distance cyclists. That said, I have ridden a large section of it - 5 nights and stayed in hotels 2 of those. I camped legally the other nights and I didn't find the KATY all that accommodating to camping legally in general. That was 2005. Perhaps things have changed.

Let's start with the speeding motorists first. The people who are killing tens of thousands of people every year. Then i might get on board for putting some dude in jail for catching a break for one night in a remote woodlot.

I am not religious but on occasion I do ask myself "What would Jesus do?" Also, if you asked just about any Native American they would tell you that the land is being occupied by a hostile force who has no business owning any of it. It's stolen property when it got fenced. Everything is "point of view". That said, the current enforceable law forbids trespassing. We shouldn't do it. We should all treat stealth camping the same way the vast majority of us treat the posted speed limit. If you have law breaking sensibilities, and you think you can get away with it, the consequences are on you. From what I see on Interstate highways (and other institutions), this is the American way.

Eggman84

Whats your problem whenever stealth camping comes up? Obviously you live in a community where everyone has enough money to put a shelter over their head 365 days a year. I know this is a cycling forum but have you ever heard of homelessness. You sure seem to think jail is the answer for anyone doing something you don't approve of, whether it is legal or not. Are you a layer or just an old bitter rich person who yells at kids if they so much as step on your front lawn. I am sure you paid the original native Americans for your property, otherwise that would just be stealing! See I can pontificate as easily as you, but I will leave it at one post rather repeating my opinion again, and again, and again, and ...

pdlamb

I'm not sure how you would stealth camp 10 mph over the posted speed limit.

skookum

I'm imagining a tent pitched on the back of a flatbed truck.

JoeyBike

Or in a boxcar! Man, why didn't I think of that?

Oh wait....I have used Amtrak in the past. I don't count that towards my bike touring miles tho.

alan s 

bbbean 

That's not how it works. The land was taken through eminent domain and owners were paid a fraction of the value, with the agreement that if the railroad ever ceased to function, the land would revert back to the original owners or their successors. You may view it as "selfish greed", but the property owners see it very differently.

It's easy to see rights and property as trivial or meaningless when they're someone else's. The guy who stole my bike figured I wasn't using it and he needed one. Why should I get upset?

JoeyBike

There are many "letter of the law" people in this world. You can't really argue with the fact that trespassing is illegal. And if the whole world practiced what they preached (and this poster may very well be a saint) it would be a better place. I think we all agree that the advice we should be giving is that stealth camping is mostly illegal, and we shouldn't do it. Bike touring has it's implicit challenges however. I have come danged close to being caught out a few times, often due to the campground that was supposed to be there was shut down for one reason or another. Before the days of cellphones, you put in a 100+ mile day against a headwind and find your legal spot does not exist, what are you going to do? I would never have set out on my first tour if I thought camping stealth in an "emergency" would get me executed on the spot.

People who speed in cars take their chances. They have a million ways to justify breaking the law, or give it zero thought. Speeders increase risk on the road for everyone. Strict enforcement does not even seem to help. It is not a great leap to go from wanton lawlessness on the highway by motorists to someone willing to risk a night in a poison ivy patch. It's all illegal, but should not be that difficult to understand the CONCEPT of breaking the law when it hurts no one.

I guess if you found some stranger sleeping in your car it might set you back a minute. I am trying to understand the aversion to occasional harmless "trespassing" myself. I guess this is as close as I can get to that feeling. If some dude(s) were camping for one night on my front lawn without permission I woudn't give a dang, much less under a shrub two miles from my house. Obviously, everyone is not like me and thankfully so. "What If" they get hurt on my property? What if the mailman gets hurt on my property? That guy/gal shows up every day. I have liability insurance.

bbbean 

The "current" attitude? You think private property is a new thing?

JoeyBike

If someone slept on your front lawn AND stole your bike and spray-painted smiley faces on your garage door, I would be 100% in your corner. Trespassing is not theft or vandalism. It's a whole different set of laws. Mostly designed to prevent theft, poaching, and vandalism.

alan s 

bbbean 

I have lost tens of thousands of dollars over the years to trespassers who have vandalized my farm, stolen equipment from my farm, damaged crops, interfered with equipment, created safety hazards, etc. People have used my farm for a variety of criminal activities. Many, if not most rural landowners can tell similar tales. YOU may only intend to pitch a tent and roll out in the roll out in the morning, but I can't tell that just from looking at you. None of that even addresses privacy, liability, or hazards you may not be aware of.

But ultimately, all the considerations come down to one simple concept. The property isn't yours. It belongs to someone else, and they haven't invited you to use it. So don't use it. If you want to use it, ask permission. This isn't complicated.

bbbean 

My understanding was that eminent domain had been used in at least some sections. If that is incorrect I concede the point.

Why is it selfish and greedy to want to adhere to the terms of an agreement? Is it conceivable that even one landowner might have legitimate concerns or a different perspective than you?

BB

alan s 

bbbean 

Wow.

Rowan

The first paragraph answers. Thanks.

I am normally general manager of a property that grows and harvest cherries. Last picking season, I told four foreigners who were camped with about 10 others to leave because they would consistently to turn up to work for half a day, then depart to the campsite. I told them to leave by the same afternoon, and not to came back at all.

Now it seems the owner has decided none of the picking and processing staff are permitted on any of the property outside allocated day-time attendance. Simplifies thing for management, but is based entirely on insurance costs which really aren't wanted for overnight stayers. Also there is noneed to waste labour time in cleaning the rubbish and mess left behind.

Shame I will miss out the experience season as I still recover from a near fatal workplace series of injuries last March. But the guy acting in my position is fully clued up on it all.

And just an indicator, three of the top five pickers we've had in five seasons arrived on bicycles in my first season there.

JoeyBike

First, I agree with you 100%. I have friends who own weekend farms and drive there from the city. Farms are vacant all week. Theft is a huge problem, not to mention target practice aimed at valuable property including livestock. Do you imagine that even one of these crimes could be attributed to bicycle tourists? Speaking for myself, my load is big enough out there cycling self contained for months on end. Unless I came across a solid gold brick at the edge of your property, or paper money blowing down the road, I would not want to carry so much as an extra matchstick.

Do you have signs surrounding your property with your phone number listed? If land has "No Trespassing" or "Posted" signs at legal distances along the roadside I certainly wouldn't go past them. I'm too allergic to poison ivy (not fond of tics and chiggers either) to stealth camp most places anyway but posted land would be bottom on my list. I would never cross a fence either. My biggest fear is the local kids out shooting coyotes or whatever after dark with a light and mistaking a reflector on my shoe for a varmint with 4-legs! It could happen. That would certainly put the landowner in a pickle. Farm dogs finding me a 3am wouldn't be too good either.

I can't argue with you because you are right. I also know that a savvy stealth camper could come and go from a carefully chosen location and no one would ever know.

alan s 

You could even argue that having a rail trail through your property would be better from a security standpoint. Thieves and vandals don’t want witnesses.

alan s 

Rowan

No, they choose to do the crimes in darkness. Yours is an OK thought in the city where street and vehicle lights exist, but maybe not if the crime records are examined and found to be common.

Who's going to see anyone committing theft in a distance from a passing trail in the dark (or even daylight)?

Have ever lived in a remote country environment? I have; it ain't easy keeping up a 24 watch.

Anyone "visiting" by using access roads where I work now is intercepted, and told to leave immediately under supervision. Easy trespassers off boats walking on the land are intercepted and told to leave, without any excuse.

And remember that people committing crimes are often carrying loaded weapons. Just do a thread check of BFs to see does it when riding bikes.

Do the properties owned privately along the K Trail, pay local and/or state government taxes?

Rowan

Thanks for that. The post above is not intended to be unfriendly, but does discuss issues that may or may not be relevant the US, but are elsewhere.

bbbean 

I understand that YOU would never harm my land, steal from me, or do anything that would put either of us at risk. The problem is that I don't know what you look like and the guy who might do any or all of those things might look just like you. I could, like JD Salinger just be obsessively private and not want anyone invading my space. So best not to trespass.

Glad we agree. I'll note that just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should do a thing. I'll even add that if you ask nicely, you're more than welcome to camp on the farm.

bbbean 

Yes, you could argue that, but the folks who have had problems with people using the trail to get in and out of otherwise remote locations have a completely different argument to make. I suppose leaving all your windows and doors open would make your house less vulnerable to thieves as well, right?