Wes_in_va

I’m enjoying reading through this thread. My first decent road bike was an ‘83 Super Course and I’m in the lookout to find one to play with. You guys are motivating me to up my search!

beicster 

I have been thinking about thinning the herd lately. I have not done anything rash but every time I go through the inventory in my head, the Super Course gets to stay. I am not sure what it is about that bike, but I just can't convince myself to sell it. I just like it.

noglider 

I thought about selling or giving mine a way quite a bit. But now I will never do that.

beicster 

I still want to try an early 70's model. Mine is a 79.

noglider 

Yes, they're different. I remember when the 79 came out, and I thought it was a huge improvement, but my orientation at the time was to pure racing bikes, and this was racier than the old one. But now I like the old sport-touring geometry. It has floppy steering, which can be annoying, depending on your taste. And it's not great if you need precise handling at high speed.

beicster 

Ha! I haven't needed anything for high speed for a long time.

noglider 

Definitely keep your eyes out for an old Raleigh of the period. Most of the models had nearly the same geometry: Super Course, Gran Sport (or Grand Sports), Competition, International.

Real1shepherd

I bought mine because I couldn't find a Competition GT at the time. And as luck would have it, I found a bone stock Competition GT to restore somewhat locally. I never did restore the SC and I think it's might be early 70's. I talked about the SC in here many pages back.

Kevin

beicster 

I am thinking of buying this frame. Does this look like a Super Course to you? I can't find a reference to any Raleigh with a serial number that starts with Z. Interesting lugs, though.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970s-Ralei...cAAOSwptJaZsCK

Kilroy1988 

No, it's almost certainly a repainted Grand Prix. They used that lug set for a while and the Centennial head badge suggests a date of manufacture between 1968 and 1971 or thereabouts. On this particular frame the chain stays are nicely smoothed over the top tube, while many have a bulkier appearance. The fork crown is also nicer than you often see with these frames. It was well built by the look of it - maybe by someone who'd just got their holiday bonus. The Grand Prix was made with high tensile tubing rather than Reynolds 531, making the frames a step down from the Super Course.

Retro Raleighs: The Grand Prix

elcraft

Kilroy1988 

Which year of early Super Course has that style of Prugnat lugs? I have a couple of 1970 Super Courses but they don't quite match this. You're right about the rear triangle, though! I've also never seen a Grand Prix with chrome there.

I was thinking of the Grand Prix because many years of them had this lug set.

For example:

https://curbdestroyer.blogspot.com/20...rand-prix.html

Perhaps it is a Super Course! The chrome sure suggests that... If so, it's a great price.

-Gregory

beicster 

Even with shipping, it seems like a deal if it is a Super Course, though I would prefer that lovely green. I will give this some more thought.

nlerner

beicster 

Any thoughts on the serial number?

rustystrings61 

Is it possible that this is a 1967 Raleigh Carlton, the predecessor to the Super Course? Also, have a look at this one. Those are Bocama 80-something pattern II lugs, and all of a sudden I am noticing 25-ish-inch Raleigh Super Courses and variants with Bocama lugs with pattern II sockets on bikes with anniversary badges.

beicster 

I sent a message to the seller asking if there was an additional serial number on the bottom bracket shell. Hopefully I will hear something.

Kilroy1988 

Probably not, as the Raleigh Carlton was not offered in any size larger than 23.5". With that in mind, I'll note that the first catalog advertising the Super Course in a 25.5" frame size was 1970, and I have two of those with different lugs than this...

Well, again, I guess the lugs aren't that different. On mine the points on the sides of the head tube are smoothed out, but otherwise they look almost the same. Hmm!

-Gregory

noglider 

@beicster, if that's your size, I suggest you buy it. It looks very nice, whatever it is.

beicster 

Seller got back to me and said that there are no other serial numbers on it. It was his friend's dad's bike and has sat for 40 years.

rustystrings61 

This thing is a weird little mystery. I agree that it's a repaint; that the headbadge is affixed with replacement rivets; and that it combines the Bocama lugs we associate with the Grand Prix with a chromed rear. The BB shell (according to the pix on the big auction site) is currently fitted with a Sugino 1.37 x 24 BB. The fork crown looks like the ones used for some Gran Sports, like maybe a Vagner no. 12? Still, not one I have ever seen with a Super Course nor a Grand Prix.

Maybe it's a Carlton Catalina of some sort? Compare it with jmeb's Carlton Catalina and then look at nlerner's '69 Super Course with Bocama mod. 14 pattern II lugs - it is a head-scratcher, no?

I really wish we knew what size seatpost this takes! A Grand Prix would be a 25.4 mm, a Super Course (or Carlton) with plain gauge 531 would be 26.4 mm.

beicster 

You are killing me, Tom. It is my birthday after all.

noglider 

OK @beicster, if you want an excuse not to buy it, it might have 26 tpi threads, and it doesn't come with a headset.

Happy birthday.

rustystrings61 

@Kilroy1988, your two Super Courses with Bocama 14/II lugs - and nlerner's '69 23.5-in (I think!) with the same lugs - just remind me of how many places and how many levels of bikes used essentially the same lugs from Bocama. Allegro thought enough of them that they switched over to 14/IIs c.1960 and used them into the mid-70s, replacing the highly regarded Nervex Professional lugs they used in the 50s. The model 80-something (can't see enough to positively ID them) lugs on the bike in question look comparable to the ones used on the Grand Prix, and also used on the Carlton Catalina.

I think the answer lies in the seatpost size.

beicster 

Done. I will know for sure what the TPI is when it arrives. On a positive note, It has a 24tpi bottom bracket currently installed.