Just curious... why has everyone stopped making lugged frames?
05-24-10 | 03:39 PM
#26
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Bikes: bianchi sport sx, motobecane mirage
Thanks for the information everyone
- the op -
05-24-10 | 05:03 PM
#27
aka Tom Reingold
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From: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
I was a mechanic from 1978 through 1984, and at the time, a lugless frame was very low end. Whenever I saw a rare high-end lugless frame, it was hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that it wasn't crappy, like a department store bike.
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05-24-10 | 07:06 PM
#28
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From: Texarkana, AR
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That's very true. I remember as a kid you could pretty much tell whether a bike sucked or not by whether or not it had lugs. Rarely was there an exception.
05-24-10 | 07:14 PM
#29
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Is it that women can't discover and enjoy Cycling or is it that geezers approaching 40 are incapable of enjoying the sport? Perhaps it's just a combonation of being female and 39?
05-24-10 | 08:19 PM
#30
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From: Texarkana, AR
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I think he means that if she doesn't like cycling after 34-ish years of trying (since she was 5), that she never will.
She's barely tried though - Our bicycles when we were kids were horrid things from J.C. Penny's. I had the advantage of having friends that rode better bikes, so I knew what I was missing, and when I was coming up on my 14th birthday (1983) I went bike browsing in several LBS's. I really lusted after a Univega Viva Sport in the shop but flatly knew that $230 was out the question ($230 in 1983 was about the same as $900 today), and settled on a Giant-built Schwinn Traveler. I hit my parents up for it and was denied, but a week later they told me they'd go halves on it with me if I could raise the money. I worked my ass off mowing lawns for a couple of months, and just before my birthday my grandmother asked me how much I was short - she gave me the last $25 I needed to come up with my half.
In short, I knew what I was missing and went for it. My sister never liked her Penny's POS and never did. She got a hand-me-down from my grandmother in her late teens that was also a department store POS, and she hated that... I think she's ridden one or two bikes since then, all of them junk. She just doesn't know what she's missing.
I'll get her on a bike if it kills me.
She's barely tried though - Our bicycles when we were kids were horrid things from J.C. Penny's. I had the advantage of having friends that rode better bikes, so I knew what I was missing, and when I was coming up on my 14th birthday (1983) I went bike browsing in several LBS's. I really lusted after a Univega Viva Sport in the shop but flatly knew that $230 was out the question ($230 in 1983 was about the same as $900 today), and settled on a Giant-built Schwinn Traveler. I hit my parents up for it and was denied, but a week later they told me they'd go halves on it with me if I could raise the money. I worked my ass off mowing lawns for a couple of months, and just before my birthday my grandmother asked me how much I was short - she gave me the last $25 I needed to come up with my half.
In short, I knew what I was missing and went for it. My sister never liked her Penny's POS and never did. She got a hand-me-down from my grandmother in her late teens that was also a department store POS, and she hated that... I think she's ridden one or two bikes since then, all of them junk. She just doesn't know what she's missing.
I'll get her on a bike if it kills me.
05-24-10 | 11:48 PM
#31
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Dunno how old you were then, but I was 13, and hoping for a bicycle on my 14th birthday. It was a lot of money to me then. Hell, the $185 I spent on the Schwinn was a lot of money to me. I rode the piss out of that bike until 23 days before I left for Basic Training, when it got stolen.
05-25-10 | 12:16 AM
#32
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Bikes: 1967 Paramount; 1982-ish Ron Cooper; 1978 Eisentraut "A"; two mid-1960s Cinelli Speciale Corsas; and others in various stages of non-rideability.
Another vote for Bianchigirl's conclusion. Cost uber alles for most manufacturers. For most businesses of any persuation, for that matter. It isn't evil, but it is a fact of economic life.
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05-25-10 | 06:07 AM
#33
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I've seen at least four lugged framed bikes in the LBS near me just recently, and they weren't all the same manufacturer/model. One was a fixie, one was a tricked out old school like (but new) tourer, and the other two looked like they were meant for... racing. I am not in the market for a new roadie so I didn't really pay them any attention, but it did strike me as cool that you could still actually get a lugged frame. If I ever get sick of my Trek 1000 (it works just fine, no need to upgrade at the moment), I'll probably look into one of those next.
05-25-10 | 09:13 AM
#34
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From: North Bergen, NJ
Bikes: '80 Windsor Carrera Sport, '02 Specialized Sirrus A1, '10 Giant Escape 2
I spent $250 on a new bike in 1980 (yes, with a lugged frame, with non-butted CrMo tubing).
My sister bought a car for less ($125). It didn't run on all cylinders, but it did run, and it did pass inspection.
My sister bought a car for less ($125). It didn't run on all cylinders, but it did run, and it did pass inspection.
05-25-10 | 09:55 AM
#35
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It's far cheaper for a company to buy machinery to weld together aluminum, and steel frames without lugs, than it is to hire trained professional artisans to butt braze lugged frames. Period.
Believe it or not, back in the forties and fifties it was possible to buy a custom made hand built but plain Jane frames for as low as $35
Lugged steel frames, especially when the lugs are filed into fancy designs are beautiful and ride very nicely indeed!
Believe it or not, back in the forties and fifties it was possible to buy a custom made hand built but plain Jane frames for as low as $35
Lugged steel frames, especially when the lugs are filed into fancy designs are beautiful and ride very nicely indeed!
05-25-10 | 11:12 AM
#36
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It's far cheaper for a company to buy machinery to weld together aluminum, and steel frames without lugs, than it is to hire trained professional artisans to butt braze lugged frames. Period.
Believe it or not, back in the forties and fifties it was possible to buy a custom made hand built but plain Jane frames for as low as $35
Lugged steel frames, especially when the lugs are filed into fancy designs are beautiful and ride very nicely indeed!
Believe it or not, back in the forties and fifties it was possible to buy a custom made hand built but plain Jane frames for as low as $35
Lugged steel frames, especially when the lugs are filed into fancy designs are beautiful and ride very nicely indeed!
05-25-10 | 12:01 PM
#37
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I disagree. There is a perception out there that lighter is better, and it's taken over the bicycle buying public to the great detriment of bicycling in general. If lugged steel frames of the same weight and strength as CF or aluminum could be built cost-effectively, we'd see bikes shops filled with nothing but bikes with lugged steel frames - given a ride on three bikes (steel, aluminum and CF) that all weighed and cost the same, no sane person would choose to ride aluminum, and very few would choose to ride CF.
However, while a steel frame can get close to the weight of aluminum with sufficient strength, they're generally very expensive, likely because they're not mass-produced, and so the average person chooses aluminum.
And lets not even get into the real average bike purchaser... the department store buyer. They know NOTHING about bikes, or they wouldn't be shopping there... but they "know" aluminum is lighter, and lighter is "better". Of course, none of them have ever grabbed one of those POS bikes and put it in a scale. I remember some department store mountain bike (can't remember the brand, doesn't matter) got weighed in a shop recently, and tipped the scale at... ready for this? 48lbs.
48 friggin' pounds. My '84 cromoly Schwinn Sierra tips the scales at less than 30.
But aluminum is lighter.
However, while a steel frame can get close to the weight of aluminum with sufficient strength, they're generally very expensive, likely because they're not mass-produced, and so the average person chooses aluminum.
And lets not even get into the real average bike purchaser... the department store buyer. They know NOTHING about bikes, or they wouldn't be shopping there... but they "know" aluminum is lighter, and lighter is "better". Of course, none of them have ever grabbed one of those POS bikes and put it in a scale. I remember some department store mountain bike (can't remember the brand, doesn't matter) got weighed in a shop recently, and tipped the scale at... ready for this? 48lbs.
48 friggin' pounds. My '84 cromoly Schwinn Sierra tips the scales at less than 30.
But aluminum is lighter.
Carbon Fibre reinforced plastic, 1100g (2.5lbs)
Aluminum alloy 1500g (3.25lbs)
Steel (Cromoly) 1800g (4lbs)
Now these are the best the material is capable of, and yes, the difference is less then 2lbs.
Lugged steel does have one area where it has a huge advantage over anything welded, and that is it's ability to be repaired. Suppose you need to replace the top tube, a brazed frame simply needs to be warmed up to brazing temperature, the old top tube removed, the lugs cleaned up, a new tube installed and braze it in, this could even be done by a plumber or pipe fitter. Repairing a welded frame, can probably be done, but it's going to be a lot harder to do, and the weld is going to be bigger.
Another issue with welds, few welded frames are cleaned up after manufacture so the welds look pretty ugly. Lugged frames were often cleaned up after the brazing so that they looked nice.
05-25-10 | 12:25 PM
#38
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True. I've seen cromoly frames as light as 3.75 lbs., but I wouldn't bet on their durability.
And that brings up another point - how many of those super light frames will still be on the road in 20 years?
Carbon Fiber and Aluminum can't take deflection, so they either have to make them strong enough to resist deflection, making them heavier... or they have to accept that they have a usable lifespan and will eventually fail. Often catastrophically.
The 4 lb. Cro-Mo frame will still be kickin' it, barring accident or severe neglect.
And that brings up another point - how many of those super light frames will still be on the road in 20 years?
Carbon Fiber and Aluminum can't take deflection, so they either have to make them strong enough to resist deflection, making them heavier... or they have to accept that they have a usable lifespan and will eventually fail. Often catastrophically.
The 4 lb. Cro-Mo frame will still be kickin' it, barring accident or severe neglect.
05-25-10 | 01:10 PM
#39
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I raised the same question at Brady v Dalen shop, who refinished my WTB and Zieleman. Brady is the brother from master builder Jan v Dalen, the person behind Duell. Bradys answer was simply that overhere (Holland) you can't sell conventional lugged bikes to the audiance Jan builds for. Jan builds serious performance aimed steel roadbikes.
www.duell.nl
Jan started with lugged decades ago, but now it is all welding and unconventional shaped tubing.
As some other posters stated before: Welding is not only here for reason of being cheap. I happen to own two Grove Innovations mountainbikes. Both bikes show supersmooth almost invisable welds. Doing it this way you will absolutely not achieve an efficiency gain over lugged. A lugged frame could be put together with much more relaxed tolerances.
www.duell.nl
Jan started with lugged decades ago, but now it is all welding and unconventional shaped tubing.
As some other posters stated before: Welding is not only here for reason of being cheap. I happen to own two Grove Innovations mountainbikes. Both bikes show supersmooth almost invisable welds. Doing it this way you will absolutely not achieve an efficiency gain over lugged. A lugged frame could be put together with much more relaxed tolerances.
05-25-10 | 01:21 PM
#41
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But in practice, there are very, very few steel lugged frames that are worth the expenditure to do so. In most cases, the cost of replacing a tube and repainting far exceeds the cost to just replace the frame. Unless the frame in question is unusual, collectible, or irreplaceable, it doesn't make financial sense to go through the exercise.
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05-25-10 | 01:34 PM
#42
Nothing against you, but just a general observation... Why do CF bikes cost so much then? Is it only because bikes are supposed to be a little higher cost every year to justify a change? It costs a tenth, but a brand name CF bike seems to be double the cost of a bare steel boutique frame. By the time you build up a steel boutique frame the cost is about the same? I'd rather have the steel under me when it comes right down to it.,,,,BD
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05-25-10 | 01:39 PM
#43
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Nothing against you, but just a general observation... Why do CF bikes cost so much then? Is it only because bikes are supposed to be a little higher cost every year to justify a change? It costs a tenth, but a brand name CF bike seems to be double the cost of a bare steel boutique frame. By the time you build up a steel boutique frame the cost is about the same? I'd rather have the steel under me when it comes right down to it.,,,,BD
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05-25-10 | 01:41 PM
#44
True. I've seen cromoly frames as light as 3.75 lbs., but I wouldn't bet on their durability.
And that brings up another point - how many of those super light frames will still be on the road in 20 years?
Carbon Fiber and Aluminum can't take deflection, so they either have to make them strong enough to resist deflection, making them heavier... or they have to accept that they have a usable lifespan and will eventually fail. Often catastrophically.
The 4 lb. Cro-Mo frame will still be kickin' it, barring accident or severe neglect.
And that brings up another point - how many of those super light frames will still be on the road in 20 years?
Carbon Fiber and Aluminum can't take deflection, so they either have to make them strong enough to resist deflection, making them heavier... or they have to accept that they have a usable lifespan and will eventually fail. Often catastrophically.
The 4 lb. Cro-Mo frame will still be kickin' it, barring accident or severe neglect.
Not sure where the myth of the superior durability of steel frames came from, but it's only a myth. But it'll stick around for a long time, in the U.S. anyway, as long as the believers keep believing that aluminum bikes break because they're aluminum but steel bikes break despite being steel. Me, I agree with the savvy European high-performance bike buyers: I'll take carbon or aluminum over steel any day.
05-25-10 | 01:56 PM
#45
Dolce far niente
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From: Southwest Idaho
Even 4-lb steel bikes are pushing it for durability. When I was managing a shop 20 years ago that carried Bianchis, I once asked the sales rep what Bianchi of Italy did with the warrantied Bianchi USA frames. He said, "They don't do anything with them because they don't warranty the frames at all - Bianchi USA does, because that's what you have to do to sell bikes in the U.S."
Not sure where the myth of the superior durability of steel frames came from, but it's only a myth. But it'll stick around for a long time, in the U.S. anyway, as long as the believers keep believing that aluminum bikes break because they're aluminum but steel bikes break despite being steel. Me, I agree with the savvy European high-performance bike buyers: I'll take carbon or aluminum over steel any day.
That being said - I prefer steel because they're aesthetically pleasing to me, and I can ride around all day on a nice one-off that is fun to ride. Were I seriously concerned about performance or competition, I'm with you - CF is where it's at.
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Last edited by bigbossman; 05-25-10 at 02:00 PM.
05-25-10 | 02:11 PM
#46
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05-25-10 | 02:29 PM
#47
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In theory, yes.
But in practice, there are very, very few steel lugged frames that are worth the expenditure to do so. In most cases, the cost of replacing a tube and repainting far exceeds the cost to just replace the frame. Unless the frame in question is unusual, collectible, or irreplaceable, it doesn't make financial sense to go through the exercise.
But in practice, there are very, very few steel lugged frames that are worth the expenditure to do so. In most cases, the cost of replacing a tube and repainting far exceeds the cost to just replace the frame. Unless the frame in question is unusual, collectible, or irreplaceable, it doesn't make financial sense to go through the exercise.
05-25-10 | 02:30 PM
#48
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Bikes: a heavy old steel Frankenbike Gitane, a cruiser (not something I'd buy for myself, but it was a gift, what can you do?), a Greg Lemond, a Specialized Stumpjumper(old, steel, fully rigid), and a Specialized Safire
I think it was Bike or Bicycling magazine that did a story just a month or two ago on the process of building a carbon fiber frame. They are expensive largely because the building process is very labor intensive. I seem to remember points like each frame size requires its own setting mold, and you have to do multiple layers of different weaves of the material, and manipulate the mix of layers to achieve different ride qualities. It takes a long time and you can't do everything at once because you have to wait for things to set.
I have ridden carbon fiber bikes and own an alu/carbon mix frame road bike, as well as a steel road bike. I like both, but if I could only keep one, it would be the steel bike. Even though both handle well, I prefer the steel frame because it's stable and predictable in windy conditions. The extra three pounds on that bike doesn't hamper the performance enough to bother me, but the whippy feeling I get when trying to ride CF on a windy day definitely does.
I have ridden carbon fiber bikes and own an alu/carbon mix frame road bike, as well as a steel road bike. I like both, but if I could only keep one, it would be the steel bike. Even though both handle well, I prefer the steel frame because it's stable and predictable in windy conditions. The extra three pounds on that bike doesn't hamper the performance enough to bother me, but the whippy feeling I get when trying to ride CF on a windy day definitely does.
05-25-10 | 02:33 PM
#49
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From: Southwest Idaho
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05-25-10 | 02:36 PM
#50
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While we're on the subject of frame construction...would a lugged steel bike and a TIG welded steel bike ride any differently because of the construction or is that still more a function of tubing and geometry?