Morgie

Exactly!! I have some ****y wheels and am riding freewheel, I'm just trying to **** that **** up or get it stolen so I can get a real wheelset/hub/tires

dutret

Exactly, that is why it is incorrect. He says that it's alot harder then you think to cut a rim and then backs that up by explaining how a hacksaw would have trouble. He overlooks that a hacksaw is the worst possible tool for the job and if you use bolt cutters it is not that hars. Therefore his statement that it would be near impossible to cut a tensioned wheel is wrong.


42" is a common bolt cutter length. Check out pawn shops they are usually full of them. According to someone I know who works with tweakers and has had extensive conversations with the less desireable ones about bike theft the two most common tools are the 42" bolt cutter for cables, chains, and small locks and the hydraulic jack for u locks.

edit: By the way,the tweakers advise use of both a U and a big cable or a chain locked seperately since it is hard to carry around both giant tools of thievery at the same time.

bonechilling

Just adding to what dutret said right here, it has always
seemed to me that the best method is to have two locks
of differing types to secure your bike. So I carry around
one Fug. U-Lock and one decent cable lock, with the
theory being that two entirely different tools are required
to defeat each, and it's unlikely that a thief would be
lugging both around town. The only problem is that the
cable lock doesn't really fit in a lot of the same places that
my U-lock does (parking meters, mostly), so I end up
using the lock to secure both wheels, or a wheel and the
seat.

Of course, someone with a small grinder could easily
defeat both, but I think we all acknowledge that all locks
are useless against powertools.

SamHouston

Sheldon says it is difficult, he doesn't suggest it's near impossible, that's you.

Back to bolt cutters, 25mm - diameter- is a lot, even 42" bolt cutters will not fit all of a rim in its jaws. Where are the bolts, chains & shackles with this diameter that are not severed with a cut-off wheel? No one uses non-pnuematic bolt cutters on anything over 7/8". 25mm is a low profile shimano rim w/out tire, Sheldon's own example looks a lil larger. The drug addicts you mention don't cut wheels, tire or no tire, with bolt cutters.You still fail to address how easy it is to cut a rim with bolt cutters. It's no easier than with a hacksaw, and with success comes a bike you can't ride away.

I know it'd be cool to be right where Sheldon is wrong, and that's very attractive to you, but it isn't any easier to cut a wheel with bolt cutters. With a hacksaw or bolt cutters it is a multi faceted operation, a process. Any of those drug addicts would tell you how unattractive it is, almost like work. Especially when there are other bikes with cables & cheap u-locks waiting to be clipped or sawn through.

Sheldons method is sound as long as the super-duper kingboltcutters with multi-jaw killer teeth are still a fantasy.

bitpartinyrlife

rad, thanks man. anyone know of the cheapest place in the city to get it (the yellow one, not the orange)? I saw it for $120 at Paragon yesterday, Bicycle Habitat has it for $125 on their site. Its $82 (!) on amazon but I'd rather just get it at a store for a few bucks more if possible.

SamHouston

Waiting for stuff in the mail sucks ass, LBS if they got it everytime. I'm looking hard at the NY noose, looks cool but it seems like the lil U is left twisting in the wind, easier for a thief to work on? Probably I'm not thinking enough about how to use it.

dutret

As I said you deflate the tire and then cut. The rim will get crushed down to a reasonable size and then cut. There is no question the bolt cutters will fit around easily. Whether they cut or not would take a trial but I have neither bold cutters nor a rim I want to sacrifice. Even three clips is alot easier then using a hacksaw. If you think not you clearly haven't used a hacksaw much. I'm glad your there to support sheldon but he's not a god just a very knowledgable yet still fallible person. His assertion that it would be more difficult then you think supported by the hacksaw example is illogical and wrong.

You underestimate how sophisticated and dertermined bike theives are. A "multifaceted" two step job for an expensive bike is no problem for some. I have seen cables that were clearly "gnawed" through with hand held clippers so a single cut is not a neccessity. And everyone has seen bikes stolen with a wheel left behind.

Also tweakers love work.

shants

i'll steal all of your bikes with my angle grinder in < 5 minutes each. pick your lock!

sivat

I've got a crappy wheel I'll donate to the cause. if anyone in so. cal. has a big set of bolt cutters, we'll put this to the test.

SamHouston

No one in this part of the world under estimates bike thieves and keeps their bike. I also fail to see how a 42" bolt cutter that has a maximum cutting width of 3/4" (7/8" was a guess, apparantly most are limited to 3/4") can fit around a naked road rim with almost a full 1/4" larger diameter. You cannot get both rim walls in one cut, you cannot get the double wall of the inner rim into the blades of your weapon of choice at all, even if you snip both side walls first. Let's say you cut the accesible rim wall of a tensioned wheel, how do you propose to get through the rest of the rim in just one cut? I think it could be done, but it would require a lot of force, and many, many chewing cuts. Faster to use your first idea of untensioning the wheel and hitting it with a hacksaw. Or my own of kicking the seam.

No one said Sheldon was infallible, that's just you. No one is defending Sheldon, just his method. His method is quite sound, as for illogical & wrong assertations, many people DO see individual wheels locked to poles, they were locked outside the triangle or are front wheels locked by silly people. They weren't cut. How many people see wheels that have been cut laying on the sidewalk? None, not any. I don't think a lot of people use Sheldons method, but if any percentage at all does we would see the results here in TO if it were as weak as you state it is.

Sheldons method has stood the test of time, it's been argued and tested before, even on this forum. You may want to ask mechbgon who sez he'll test it, hasn't yet AFAIK but even his first suggested test involved power tools, not bolt cutters. When ABhouston pointed out that real world bike thief tools would make a more applicable test he seemed to opt for breaking the rim at any point (presumably at the point at which it's locked) rather than my own method of hitting it at the seam and cutting a few spokes to get the break to the lock.

If you're whole argument is based around bolt cutters, you are wrong, not sheldon. The example you give just won't go around the example of a rim I gave, a road rim, mind you, much less a mtb rim. Perhaps Sheldon didn't mention bolt cutters because even the large 42" can't do it easily?

Do you really believe that bike thieves like to work at the only part of their job they could be arrested or attacked during? The pro thieves here in TO, which has more thieves than you can shake a stick at, more than in all of GA despite the meth problem in the south, seem to prefer fast action, quick in & out theft unless they have cover of darkness.

You're a bit weird in your need to be right meaning that someone else be wrong. If it's not enough for you to admit that Sheldons method is Different & has it's strengths & weaknesses like any other method then this is far more about your ego than Sheldons method. Unless of course you have a pair of those magic 42" bolt cutters that go around 25mm (.9842519") inflexible alu objects & sever them in 2 snips. Then do it again with the larger MTB rims.

If you really want to be right at someones expense, I gaurantee I can break Sheldon's method with nothing but a pair of park cable snips much, much faster than you can with bolt cutters. You'll have to concede that the bolt cutters were the wrong choice for the rim....I'm not sure you can.

dutret

The cutting width of bolt cutters is based on how far they can open and still provide enought leverage to cut a bolt. Many can open farther near the mouth and crushing a rim should take a miniscule amount of force compared to cutting hardened steel.

I have only ever seen a handful of bikes locked with sheldons method compared to dozens every day locked though only a wheel. Only a small percentage of these do I ever see the wheel after the theft.

I have never said that bolt cutters are the only method to cut or break a rim. However logically to support the claim that it is easy to break a rim I only have to provide one example where it is easy. To make the opposite claim one much show how hard it is hard with every feasible method.

My guess is that bolt cutter would be easier then cutting up to 18 spokes and breaking the rim at the seam. It would be interesting to do a comparison. Maybe if I go home at christmas I can find a crap wheel in my parents shed, tension it properly and get some bolt cutters at a pawn shop to do the test.

bobdanger

lots of good info here- bolt cutters, cable cutters, grinders, jacks all of it awesome- if someone wants something bad enough they're gonna get it- if man made it man can break it

alanbikehouston

I use "mini" u-locks for typical neighborhood riding, and never have a problem finding a pole to lock to. A "mini" u-lock will fit around a rear wheel with a tire 35mm wide, or less, and a typical traditional parking meter pole, or typical traffic sign pole that is mounted in concrete.

Sometimes the "best" locking pole is thirty or forty yards from the shop I'm going to, but I'd rather be locked up securely, and walk thirty yards then to lock to a flimsy $30 bike rack directly in front of the shop.

In theory, a crook with expensive power tools can steal a bike that uses the "rear wheel - mini U-lock" method in under ten minutes. But, I've never seen a documented, proven case of a bike that was stolen that where the "Sheldon Brown" method was used with a "gold" rated u-lock attached to a beefy steel pole that was set in concrete.

Why does the "Sheldon Brown" method never fail in "real life"? Crooks are often dumb, but not as dumb as a rock. The majority of bikes are locked with cable locks, or with oversized, but flimsy u-locks from Wal-Mart or K-Mart. That allows those bikes to be stolen in under one minute using a silent, portable tool.

You would have to be the world's biggest idiot to ignore a dozen bikes locked with crummy locks to target a bike that combines a Kryptonite Fahgettaboudit u-lock with the "Sheldon Brown" rear wheel lockup method.

www.soldsecure.com/Leisure.htm

bonechilling

You can say that again. At a local eatery, there used to sit,
on the corner, an unfastened rickety old bike rack. I would
never use it because it was obviously a POS that would only
be a slight hiccup for a bike thief. Instead, I would lock to
one of the innumerable parking meters, and let the college
kids leave their Huffys and Magnas on the rack. Anyway, late
one night, some fellows in a pickup truck rolled up, hopped
out, lifted the rack onto the truck (it's small, only 4" or so),
and drove off into the North side with a sizeable collection of
bikes.

dutret

You miss the point then. What ulock you use has nothing to do with it since any ulock is harder to cut then the rim will be. Unless your locking to hardened steel racks cemented into the sidewalk the fahgettaboudit lock is an exercise in waste. Any $40 lock will be harder to circumvent then the signpost or whatever you're locking it too.

SamHouston

And you in turn miss one of many points in favour of Sheldons method, namely that defeating the wheel or the post it's locked to makes or leaves a bike unridable and/or reduces the thieves net gain significantly. This and other advantages to Sheldons method is why I have to insist you are wrong to state that the Sheldon method is wrong & that Sheldon is wrong. Like I said, it has it's strengthes & weaknesses & is only different, Not Wrong.

LóFarkas

Definitely not true. Don't underestimate the crappyness of some locks. Also, the lock is at least a good target to attack. A wheel has nasty tricks up its sleeve like a 7bar tyre that explodes with a *really* loud bam if you go at it with a bolt cutter. It also tosses a couple of rubber shreds in your face. Anyway, this discussion is getting rather silly...

SamHouston

That's why lock threads are fun, they always devolve into talk about tools & such, who here on a cycling forum can resist talk of tools, computers or other gadgetry. No one I know.

Maybe this person shoulda coulda woulda read about such things, you see this a lot in TO

dutret

But that clearly doesn't deter theives since so many bikes get stolen in an unrideable condition. If you wanted it rideable you could easily steal a nearby unlocked wheel anyway. I never said the method was wrong. I said his assertions about how hard it was to defeat were wrong. A locking method can't be wrong. How much security it provides can vary. His method provides far less security the the u-lock is capable of providing.

Even this method is not wrong. It provides little security but it isn't wrong that doesn't make sense.


If I was to assert that it was hard to defeat because you would have to cut a thick cable that would be wrong.



LoFarkas:
I specifically said you deflate the tire first. Yes some locks are really crappy but there are decent locks available in the sub $30 range. Spending 3 times that on Fahgettaboudit if you are using sheldons method makes no difference in how long it takes to steal the bike.

I Like Peeing

I think it's time to take a step away from the focus here and realize that a thief/group of thieves can steal any bike no matter how it's locked. If you're locking your bike outside, there's a chance it will be stolen. There's teams of thieves with every tool in their vans going around stealing bikes, day and night. I prefer to be the ******* that takes my bike inside absolutely everywhere and if I can't, I go somewhere else. In the rare instances, I have the Fahgeddaboudit chain, but I know that it can be cut whether it's bolt cutters (there's MUCH bigger cutters out there than 42"), an angle grinder, freeze spray and a hammer, whatever.

As for the wheel lock-up ordeal, it's definitely possible to cut through wheels very quickly. Tension of the wheel or whether the rim is nice or not means nothing.

I sound bitter, it's because of Philadelphia. Our thieves here are awesome.

LóFarkas

Do you take a shower in a fullface helmet? Cuz a bunch of peolpe crack their skull by slipping in the bathtub, and a cracked skull is worse than a stolen bike (or is it?... I think if you die it is).

Anyway, any reasonable person will try and limit the chances of getting their bike stolen w/ a number of methods, (buying 1 or 2 good locks and using them cleverly being some of the most important), instead of walking around with a bike inside the corner store like a fool. Which brings us to why this thread is relevant.

SamHouston

Ther is more to Sheldons method & the page it's on that I thought you were taking into account. He recommends, same as you, something that deters the thieves that have only one of the 2 most common tools at hand. His method does both with one lock. Hacksaws are not quick against a good U-lock or a tensioned wheel (w/out deflating, untensioning etc) Bolt cutters are not quick against a good u-lock or a wheel (same reasons) & a failed attempt by a thief learning this lesson would likely damage only your wheel, not your frame or even your lock.

Taken out of context, Sheldon is wrong. In the context of the page that paragraph is lifted from he is not wrong.

SamHouston

And yeah, big city, you gotta take all things into account. Opportunistic losers steal the most bikes IMO, they walk w/tools, steal, ride & trade for drugs. The organized bike thieves can indeed take anything but in a big city like philly or NYC or TO they only have real good pickings among people silly enough to leave it locked outside all night, the worst possible thing you can do, leave it out at night.

dutret

So you assert. I'm willing to wager they are pretty good against a wheel. If not you can use them to cut spoke and break the wheel with your method.

His method is easily attacked with one tool. End of story. It may be bolt cutters or it may be cam style hand clippers(useful against small- meduim cables or your spokes) you only need to break the wheel or the u-lock not both. With a cable and a u you need two different tools and you have to defeat both locks in order to steal the bike.

You youself posit that the wheel could be quickly broken(quicker then three snips of some bolt cutter) by breaking it at the seam. How can you logically support Sheldon's assertion that it is hard to break then you would think(it would take longer then cutting through an untensioned rim with a hacksaw) becuase your saw blade would bind. Any sawing is going to be slower then three snips and you admit it can be done faster then that.

SamHouston

A hacksaw would melt through extruded aluminum in mere seconds once the tension is removed, I thought you knew enough about hacksaws to say I clearly don't know much about them.

I put forth my method to break it quickly yes, & it would be easy, just not to cut through the rim itself with b/c. The way I suggest is faster true, faster than large unwieldly b/c. Thanks! I thought up something Sheldon missed! Too bad it's only useful to thieves.

"Believe me, this just doesn't happen in the real world."

Never seen it, never heard of it happening & you only would if everyone locked their bikes that way. It pollutes the prize for the majority of thieves which is the greatest deterrent there is against the greatest number of thieves there are. Just ask your tweak friends. It's the combination of all the steps that is the deterrent, the time wasting of it all. Most thieves attack one, just one, point of defense.