I'm gonna steal that in the name of waging war against ******** cussfilters. Well, with a slight modification I will.

Edit: brilliant. The filter ***d it out in my sig too even though I typed ***.

I didn't go anywhere, other than home for the night. I have other things to do like activism, riding my bike, and fighting with UPS about the location of my new saddle. BikeForums is just my distraction between the business day.

First, the bike shop I referred to is https://www.millvalleycycleworks.com/ but there is also the Veloshop in Portland at https://veloshop.wordpress.com/who-is-the/ (I don't know what is going on with their regular website but that has the contac information). They are vegan shops because they do not sell any animal products and they both promote veganism and animal rights.

Second, humans were gathers long before we were hunters or before they engaged in agriculture.

Third, eating animals and their byproducts are the luxury, not being eating vegetables and grains, the diet most people in the world eat. We Westerns tend to think the "standard" diet is standard in the rest of the world. It isn't.

Fourth, it would be great to go live in the forest and not have to deal with technology but I doubt that forest would exist very long with the raging human overpopulation of this planet. Since I desire a vegan world, one free from all animal exploitation, I made the decision not to live in the forest where I won't be able to change anything.

Fifth, there are resource issues to consider. On the one hand, you can extrac petroleum from the ground, process it, and then transfrom it into a product such as a saddle. Or you can use resources to raise an animal, slaughtering that animal, and producing her skin into a saddle. The resources used to make one non-leather saddle vs. one leather saddle may actually not differ that much. But the resources to produce 10 non-leather saddles vs. 10 leather saddles aren't possibly going to compare. The land used, the water used to grow the crops; the petrochemicals used to make the fertilize to spray on the crops; the petrochemicals used to make the antibiotics to give the animals since 1) they are an unnatural species and 2) so intensively confined that sickness isn't a possibility, it is a reality; the water used for the animals, the slaughtering, the petrochemicals used to process the skin, and the work put into making the saddle.

Sixth, veganism is only expensive if you only eat processed prepared foods. I really wouldn't know if the fake meats and cheeses taste like the real thing. I only eat them when I am out and the rest of the time, I hardly even have to spend money on food with all the food that is perfectly good but still thrown out. Shopping at Whole Foods is not a requirement of veganism and you can certainly do it a hell of a lot cheaper as a vegan than if you were in there buying dead animals or their byproducts.

Fizik are hand made saddles too. If comfort is your concern, then read this article: https://www.bikesportmichigan.com/reviews/arione.shtml Sure you can't cut up a Fizik saddle and make star-patterned holes in them but I thought this was about comfort, not about looking cool.

Do vegans swallow? Come on? How old are we? 15?

wow, i really didn't want to take the time to type out of that, but i was thinking it. here, here! very nice (but i'm biased.)

So what does that have to do with anything? I'm **** sapiens and not **** erectus. We as the species that we are today are meat-eaters as well as broccoli munchers. Mixed diet is what humans normally do. Our teeth are adapted to that, our digestive organs are adapted to that, our body works best that way. (Yes, if you take care and eat some special foods you can be very healthy & strong w/o meat, too. That's not the point.) If you try to argue with that, you're ********. ****, even chimpanzees hunt and eat meat sometimes.
BS. "luxury"? Caveman ate meat. WTF is the relevance of the fact that some people cannot afford or don't have access to meat? (Well, it is relevant... just not in this regard.)

I respect you for not eating animals. It's sort of nice. But your ideology is utter rubbish and just plain wrong.

chips dont hunt, they kind of only eat other chips after feuds

and the whole "humans evolved eating some meat therefore you're an idiot not to do it now" is kinda of dumb. luckily for (some) animals (some) humans have realized we dont NEED to kill things to survive or be healthy anymore.

No, chimps do hunt. They eat smaller monkeys from other species occasionally.

And I didn't say anyone's an idiot not to eat meat. I said veganwar is an idiot to argue that eating meat is unnatural.

Whether or not eating meat is unnatural, factory farming is very unnatural

Utter rubbish and just plain wrong? Look who is talking.

I said humans were gathers, not primates. Science, real science, not the junk crap most people are fed, shows that humans are not meant to eat animal products. We can't fully digest the protiens; it causes all sorts of health issues like heat disease, cancer, and impotence; one set of canine teeth in our mouths does not compare to the rows of them in even omnivore animals like bears and dogs; and our very long intenstines is so we can fully digest plant matter while animal flesh just sits and rots in our colon (compared to a dog's very short intenstinal system). Humans only eat animals/animal byproducts because of desire for the taste and our addiction to the products.

There are some species of primates (although I don't think chimps are among them) who will eat some animal products. Human encroachment is killing off the natural predators of primates as well as the plant food primates would eat. Non-human primates eating animal products is an overpopulation issue: not enough resources and too many individuals.

I responded to a question about the cost of veganism and someone's argument that it is expensive and a luxury that not everyone has, including people in non-Western countries. It isn't relevant to biking. But neither is much of the stupid comments people have posted.

We like the historic pictures of caveman slaying wolly mammoths. Yeah, a bunch of dumb****s with stone clubs could really kill an animal several times larger than an elephant? That is almost as stupid as "do vegans swallow?"

(factory farms....new kid jumped in there) which is where a vast majority of meat comes from. hence the priveledged part. we're "priveledged" to be able to have dollar meals at fast food places, and to have access to the amount of meat we do. most other places not so much (i.e. poorer places).

if we are assumed to supposed to eat me, why is cholesterol so damaging? if we were designed for it, it probably wouldn't try to kill us, right? same goes for meat in general. i won't eat anything that is dangerous to eat raw. that's just foolish.

Through cooperation and technology... They weren't really all that dumb, they just didn't know much.
The clubs would likely have been made of mammoth bone anyways.

Theres many plants you can't eat raw. I eat sushi and steak tartar often (raw minced horsemeat or beef). Never been sick from it

maybe, but the odds aren't with you.

actually they do depending on the synthetic material used. Plastic for example, can be made from natural gas, crude oil or natural cellulose all of which will have to either directly or indirectly effect an ecosystem during the procurement process.
https://www.export911.com/ref/oriPlast.htm

Unless your saddle is made from the skin of a pesticide free fruit that has fallen to the ground after it reach maturity, it will impact some ecosystem on some level. Even in this example, you are effecting the ecosystem by removing potential food source for some animal.

Everything has an impact on an ecosystem.

BTW I can’t believe that this thread is still here and now I am adding more to it.

come on, fluffhead, this is fun. everyone argueing about things that no one is going to sway on. it makes my day...actually, not really, i just can't walk away from things. sometimes i wish i could, but i pretty much fail everytime. i'd rather be downtown talking to a real person about this who is undecided.

and I just pointed out why you are an idiot for thinking that eating meat is actually natural. Some people drink their own urine because they think it has anti-aging properties. Some of these people are fine doing it, others get really sick (and I think get gaut as a result). Does the fact that some of them can drink their own urine without negative side effects mean it is natural?

but that isn't the point of this thread. this guy, someone who has given up at least eating dead animals and maybe not wearing them, but feels that perhaps he shouldnt' buy a saddle made from the skin of a dead animal because he has heard they are really comfortable. A lot of people gave him alternatives to that saddle, other saddles known for their comfort and without the moral implications of using the skin of a dead animals. Most of the other people just gave him **** or made stupid comments when he sought an answer. Now that he has the information about other saddles, he can go out and make his decision.

Chimps will not only eat meat but they will form hunting parties to actively seek it out. It's funny that you have been so thoroughly brainwashed that you think real science is junk and the crappy arm chair postulations of psuedo-science real. Humans are not gatherers. We have probably subsisted on a diet of about 30% meat since before we were **** sapien. Humans are perfectly able to digest meat and require the concentrated nutrition it provides to support our huge brains(in most h/g environments).

eating lettuce is far more unnatural for humans then eating meat is.

thanks dutret, that last vegan war post would have been a GREAT note to end the thread on. then you go **** it up. you're from georgia...not known for huge brains. and western science can go to hell.

xthug, I am right on page with ya! Fuel to the fire, if you know what I mean. But some of the posters on here do need facts sometimes. I honestly think this could go for another 10 pages and we would all have the same opinions about whatever this thread was SUPPOSED to be about.

meh, the op got his answers. what he does is on him now. but i have a feeling he'll go synthetic. but i have to ask, and don't feel like rereading...what side of this coin are you on?

I eat birds, fish and mostly veggie dishes. I have gorgeous suede old school Concor Suprecosa. I don't eat cow or pig because it makes me feel sick afterwards. For me, what I eat is about how it makes me feel, not about some ideology about animal mistreatment.

*edit* I also just realized that I wore a suede jacket, suede birkenstock clogs and a leather belt to work today.

so you're just a hippy?

Yup and so were my parents.

the birkenstocks gave it away

They usually do. I just wish they weren't so damn comfortable so that I could give them up. I thought that my screen name would have been a bigger clue, but I sometimes forget that most posters on this forum listen to more punk then jam bands.

rebel from your parents and become a metalhead. or listen to hip hop. but I recommend metal.

veganwar is HUGE troll. I can't believe you guys are biting. I guess its cuz trolls are made of meat, and therefore are delicious. I mean he only has 4 posts, all in this thread, and his name is veganwar. HAHAHAHAH. Maybe I'm stating the obvious but it seems like some people have missed this?