mander

Oh let the kids have their fun. No one is holding a gun to your head making you ride that bike.

DerekRI

Keirin bikes are the main source of modern lugged steel beauty.. most of the other similarly constructed frames (cinelli, paramount, pog, de rosa) are all out of production. If they were still producing lots of non-keirin bikes that had the same feel, I'm sure you'd see them just as often, and they wouldn't be frowned upon by any means.

onetwentyeight 

the yama is set up time trial style... its got track ends and a derailleur hanger. it can do all sorts of things. the only thing i'd change on that bike is the cranks.

visitordesign

please explain. i ride safely with my hands in 4 positions on that bike. if you ride drops on a road bike and aren't in them, you're at just as much of a braking disadvantage...

you have no idea how fast and easy to ride that thing is. i'd say what speed i've been able to average on a 60 mile ride, but it'd only be met with skepticism and meatheadedness by those who i don't ride with.

Ceya

Rich,

I m a guy! Brother!

Keep it going, it was like yesterday seeing your bikes in those old paper VeloNews.

S/F,
CEYA!

bonechilling

Have you never seen a time trial bike before?

SamHall

Thanks to everybody for the replies, especially CEYA- I really appreciated you sharing your perspective. I've always thought that the Keirin bike craze had more to do with buying into a fad that was coopting everything Japanese. However, I am glad to learn that there is a lot more to it- gotta love the BF SS/FG!

Visitordesign- I have had a picture of that bike on my shop wall for the past 2 months, I look at it everyday. Although I'd have drops on it, I still think that frame is so perfect in so many ways. Actually, I bent a seat tube to that shape just the other day, I'll soon have my own wannabe Yamaguchi!

dirtyphotons

re: the yamaguchi.

it looks like the fork ends are slanted slightly, but not in the direction i'm used to seeing them. maybe it's an optical illusion though.

i know rivendell has them go up at the end so that you don't have to adjust your brakes when you flip your rear wheel, but these appear to go down. is that right? if so do you know why?

i'm guessing it might have something to do with the curved seat tube, but i dunno.

Retem

this is a totally bogus claim because you can get a custom made lugged spicer, rock lobster, rivendell, and others for less than a keirin frame new

sorry to break it to you but keirin bikes are fashion accessories

visitordesign

no. they're level. the bike is leaning slightly against the wall and the tub, so i think it's trick-perspective.

the thing's engineered so beautifully. i'm not competitive, i just like to ride off excess energy. i wanted to see what i could get the 'guch to max out at on rollers (geared just shy of the tallest gearing) before stability became an issue. each of my bikes seems to express a different threshold of stability on rollers when in the same gearing, so it's sort of a fun test to try to hit that max a few times and note it. road maxes are always higher since reality seems to be somewhat more forgiving than 3 spinning 16" wide drums. regardless, i was surprised by the yamaguchi's performance.

to bring this back on track... new NJS frame i need to build up (just shy of 57cm and reynolds 753!!! photo by sashae):


it was a beautiful, correctly-sized frame for a really reasonable price (way cheaper than any of my customs... or my pista, for that matter). will be built up decidedly non-NJS...

jamey

oh my effin god...that panasonic is pretty much perfect!

andre nickatina

Well..... 1,000 for a Rock Lobster vs. 500-600 for a nice NJS from Stratton that is basically new, I just don't see where you get finding a custom frame as being cheaper than a Keirin... unless you're talking about a brand new one from Kiyo? lol...

Retem

I thought I said new I have seen these 500 & 600 dollar njs frame and I wil not nor do I see the sense in spending that much on a frame that need a tube replaced due to a dent most of these used keirin bikes need tubes replaced


I will say that that panasonic is sexy thought nice paint I would shave that crown race down and put a king on it

this is not saying I don't respect japanese steel hell if I had the money I would have a yamaguchi or a kalavinka but it wouldn't be at the inflated price of the us market

visitordesign

yamaguchi's a colorado boy!

andre nickatina

Well I mean I did pick up my Grand Velo for 385 shipped, zero dents and barely any scratches... I think it's mostly the highly coveted Nagasawa's and 3Rensho's that you see for 400-600 with problems with them, but you could pick up a Bridgestone or a Panasonic or maybe even a Samson for that range w/o problems.

It's not the newest NJS frame but it is a beauty, nice lugs and geometry, so take that for what it's worth.

Retem

I am not disagreeing with you i am just saying that for a brand new to brand new it isn't worth it but used yeah you can find some sweet used japanese steel ont he cheap I have friends that have family in tokyo so it isn't hard for me to source things according to a friend his uncle is a big fan of betting on keirin races and has seen alot of for sale flyers around at the track so there must be a way to ship em I just have to decide to do it

luckycat

Actually, no, that's not true. I paid under $1200 for a custom Kalavinka, including shipping from Japan and a Dura Ace headset and bottom bracket. Rocklobster frames start around $1100, not including a fork, that's an extra $225. Rivendell production frames are around $1400, customs start at $2500. The Spicer is the only thing that's less, at $1000 for a custom lugged frame. But that's pretty close, and maybe I'm a little biased, but my Kalavinka is much nicer than any of the Spicers I've seen.

sashae

...and the Spicer won't include a headset or bottom bracket, and is usually either a one-color paint or powder. You can do pretty much what you want for paint with the Japanese builders at effectively no increase in cost. Japanese frames are a screaming bargain, used AND new.

sashae

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Japanese frames, in general, represent an appreciation for the history of the Italian framebuilders that so heavily influenced many of them in a way that you don't really see outside of the highest-end of US framebuilders (Sachs, Eisentraut, Baylis, etc.) and some of the English builders at a price-point that's accessible to people who've got enough coin to buy a Bareknuckle. The Japanese, as well, show an incredible restraint and precision in their lugwork that really isn't seen much outside of Japan -- the Italian aesthetic taken to its pinnacle in terms of fine filing and welding -- so different from the baroque stylings of the British builders (the other source of fine frames at a fair price.)

There has certainly been a fetishization of the NJS marque as a way of determining perceived quality and 'legitness' of a given frame, but to me the Japanese frames represent an incredibly beautiful aesthetic that remains (even with recent price inflation) quite a bargain. Not all Japanese frames that end up in the states need to be dented and beat to hell to be a good buy, and new frames are another category entirely.

I imagine this same level of appeal would exist for the Italian framebuilders if they actually decided to continue to produce new framesets in the same mold that brought them to fame, but looking at a modern, blob-welded Aluminum Gios or Merckx or Cinelli is just vaguely sad and unsatisfying. When Pegoretti or Cinelli are pretty much your only Italian lugged track bike options, the fact that they're less commonly seen or appreciated than Japanese bikes can easily be understood.

Many people generally don't like the complex lugwork that goes into so many British frames, and framebuilders that work in a simpler, cleaner style (like Witcomb, for example -- witness ImOnCrank's bike for an example of that!) aren't as known as the Japanese builders.

Sorry for the rambling, but I personally find the backlash against Japanese frames from some corners unfair... but hey, I like em.

Retem

ah sashae once again I agree with you completely justy like rock music the japanese have given track bikes that special little flare

I just don't like the idea of paying top dollar for a dented bike I would rather get a "gift" from a friend in japan (thats all customs needs to know)

by the way didja get anything fresh in in a 56 or 57 I murdilated my khs and am looking for a frame if the prices are right

my lazy fat otaku-chan side is really starting to influence my bike hobby guy side

I am the only guy in my town with abuster spoke card guys what band??? or sads stickers I just couldn't see me plastering a beauty like the panasonic with j-rock band stickers

Retem

wasn't 3rensho making cinelli for a while??

sashae

Nah, they used Cinelli lugs (fastback stays) and fork crowns in their very, very early days, but they never built for Cinelli. It's interesting how much the Japanese absorb and improve items created in other cultures.

mcatano

3Rensho (as well as Miyata) made some Specialized Allez bikes.

Retem

yuppo look at cars and technology man

two american tryed to reverse it once they introduced us to astro boy and the flintstones

hana barbara went to japan int he fifties and early 60's and say the japanese animation culture and thought they could do it here but their cartoons lacked the depth and maturity of japanese cartoons

Retem

how and where do you browse the e-frame bank selection I am hoving no luck just to see if it is worth while to put the family under the stress of finding me decent used frame in tokyo