Of people who have bought frames online, especially on eBay, how did you assuage your concerns about authenticity? Even buying in person, do most makes have tell-tale signs that prove they don't just have the decals and paint? What are some examples? And it's obviously not just a matter of trusting the person you're buying from, unless they got it direct from the manufacturer.

you think theyre counterfeit frames or something?

You have to know something about frames, for one.

Why not? That is my question. The market is certainly there where people crave certain brands...so I'm sure other people are there to take advantage of that.

Oh you mean you can't tell if a frame is real without knowing anything about the frame? Wow that's profound.

I agree with that question..some skilled A**hole frame builder could totally make a big chunk of change if he was to do that.

For example some rare or vintage european frame?

Given the wait time and prices for custom frames as well as the risks of counterfeiting, I can't imagine it would be worth a skilled frame builder's time to do this. Especially because the more you made (reducing your cost and making the enterprise profitable) the more likely you would be to be caught.

you need to watch out for stuff like this... These guys are GOOD!

something like this? https://www.speedplay.com/speedplaylabs/masi/

except for that replica is every bit as good as the original, and it was built by masi's own builders

If you read what I said, it reads you have to know something about frames. not A frame, not THAT frame, but frames. Lugs, placement of braze ons, , dropout/track end manufacturers, dating, geometry, what paint finishes were available.

If you are that concerned, don't buy off of e-bay.

the worst things ive ever seen are people claiming that bikes with cinelli-stamped bottom brackets are cinelli bikes. im sure there are some people who've just repainted something and added decals, but eh. buyer protection probably covers stuff like that anyway.

Well what the hell kind of answer are you looking for? Dijos put it perfectly - if you are buying a vintage frame, you need to know what constitutes a "real" one. That means if you're buying a Guerciotti, you know that it has the star cutouts and lugwork, for example.

Coming into a forum where no one knows you, asking a nebulous, uninformed question, and then giving sarcastic replies to people trying to help you is a pretty ******** lame thing to do.

Well now you are giving me some general information/examples, which is what I was looking for. A better solution than not buying, in my opinion, is learning more about the topic, then buying.

You would be right, but I don't think he was actually trying to help. Anyway chill out I wasn't trying to start a flame war, i was just looking for some general info. In particular not necessarily vintage frames, but japanese kierin frames.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say that are no people counterfieting NJS frames. They sell for too cheap to be copied.
Now some rare and or historic euro frames, maybe.
And if there were some rare or important NJS frames being faked they wouldnt probably be put on ebay.

Cinelli seems most dodgy in this regard--- as a brand. I have seen all sorts of repainted "Cinellis" on ebay--- usually with no decals.

On the other hand, a repainted frameset has lost its original status and its "value"- so it should be priced accordingly, and you probably aren't getting that ripped off if you end up with a non-Cinelli with nice lugs, dropouts, and tubes-- regardless who built it.

Agreed. The most valuable keirin frames still max out at about $1000, US. If you consider that that is about the lowest cost for a modern custom frame, there would be very little incentive for a skilled frame-builder to make one. If he did, he would essentially be shorting himself.

someone could potentially switch the dropouts on an old lugged road frame, give it a new paint job and decals and pass it off as a keirin frame......hopefully no one is sheisty enough to try that though.

Old lugged road frames clearly have different geometry than a keirin frame. If a buyer cant see that theyre a lost hope anyway.

I have been trying to find some socketed lugs like some of the keirin builders use.... impossible to find.

But, I guess you could buy a njs frame, remove the lugs... then take an old road bike frame and braze those lugs on. Volla ! it just makes so much sense.

They would also have to change out the bottom bracket shell, the seat-stays, and the fork, since these generally bear the mark of the frame-maker, as well as the NJS stamp on the BB shell.

it probably wouldnt have fooled anybody in Japan but track bikes are bigger than jesus nowadays...theres definitely alot of people who wouldnt know the difference....****ty thing to do nonetheless.

Not to mention smoothly get rid of shifter bosses, cable guides of all sorts and bottle junk.
Basically, its not gonna happen.